Which Jobs You Think Require a College Degree But Don't - Ep. 40

Ryan: Aloha guys and welcome back to degree free. We are your hosts, Ryan and Hannah Maruyama on this podcast, we share fundamentals we've discovered the mistakes we've made while self-educating, getting work, building businesses and making money. We'll tell you how to make it happen. No degree needed.

Hannah: Welcome back. Welcome back everybody. If you want to get degree news, job ideas, career opportunities and resources to teach yourself and find jobs. Then you are gonna want to get our newsletter. It's gonna be for free, if you sign up at degreefreenetwork.com. So run on over there do that now. 

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. And if you haven't already please like and subscribe, it helps to get the word out there and we'd love to have you as a regular weekly listener.

Let's get into today's topic. Today, we're going to be talking about which jobs you think require a college degree, but don't. 

Hannah: Yes, this is so fun. 

Ryan: This is gonna be a fun episode for us, because there are a lot of people that think that a bunch of these jobs, that we're gonna be talking about, actually require a college degree but don't, we're not saying that you can't also get a college degree in order to do these jobs, 

Hannah: Yes. 

Ryan: But there are degree free paths available. If you don't want to spend the money or time in college. 

Hannah: This topic in, it's specifically is like my full-time job. I love to find these jobs and then make sure that people know that you don't need a college degree to do these jobs.

Ryan: Yeah. And this isn't an exhaustive list. This is just some of the ones that we hear the most of when people say, oh, well, what about this career? You need a degree to get that or what this career, you needed a degree to get that as well, and these are some of the top jobs that we hear a lot about. And so we're going to do an episode about this, because a lot of people think that you need a college degree in order to get these careers. 

Hannah: A shocking amount of people think you need college degrees for a shocking amount of jobs, but these are just high point ones.

Ryan: Exactly. Exactly. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: So yeah, the first career is gonna be a lawyer. 

Hannah: Yeah, this one's fun, because people are like, oh it, it always without fail. What about doctors and lawyers? Like, what about lawyers or four states where you can become a lawyer without a college degree? 

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. And every state this needs to be said, every state you can become a lawyer with a college degree. 

Hannah: Yes. Very true. 

Ryan: But there are ways that you can be a lawyer without college degree. 

Hannah: Yeah. What's funny is usually people's response after I say there are four states where you can be a lawyer that a college degree and then elses states and they say, well, that's ridiculous. People would have to move. And I'm like, they move for law school all the time. All the time, that like the idea that you can't move for an apprenticeship program, but you can move for law school. And that somehow one is harder. So somehow one is like easy and one is hard is just the most ridiculous thing.

Ryan: Well, one may be easier if you're boarding in like a school, like a dorm type of situation. It could be easier. As far as like the logistics of it, as far as the actual move is what I'm saying. 

Hannah: Yeah, I guess, yeah, you're right. 

Ryan: If you're doing like a college type of deal, right? Then it could be easier in the logistics of it. 

Hannah: Way more expensive. 

Ryan: Definitely. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: So what are the states? 

Hannah: So the four states where you can become a lawyer without going to law school are going to be California, Virginia, Vermont, and Washington state. And then New York, Maine and Wyoming have a partial, apprenticeship programs where you can become a lawyer and take the bar after apprenticeship with some law school, which means you do not need to complete law school. You just need to have a certain amount of credit hours, and then you can just apprentice and then you can finish and take the bar after you're done. 

Ryan: That being said, if you go with that route though you do need a college degree in those states, right? Because in order to go to law school, you need a degree.

Hannah: Yes. 

Ryan: Right? 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: Correct. So, I just wanted to lay that out there, just so that we're being completely honest and fair. 

Hannah: Yeah, yeah. 

Ryan: Right? So if you do it, that route and those three states, you will need a college degree. 

Hannah: You have to get a bachelor's before you go to law school. 

Ryan: Exactly. 

Hannah: Or actually, you know what? I think there are some states where you don't, I'm not sure though. 

Ryan: I'm not sure.

Hannah: I'm not sure enough to say. 

Ryan: I'm not sure. 

Hannah: I'll have to look into that. 

Ryan: Right, right. But let's just say that in those three states you need, it's much easier. 

Hannah: With the bachelor's. 

Ryan: Yeah, right. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: But the other four states you can just apprentice?

Hannah: You can just apprentice, it's called law office study. And most notably this was just completed by Kim Kardashian, who apprenticed in a law office in California, specifically it's 18 hours California and Washington state it's 18 hours a week for four consecutive years.

Ryan: And you have to be like, what you have to be doing? practicing? 

Hannah: Yeah. So basically you're just, you're kind of like clerking for the, for the lawyer. So basically what you're going to be doing is like paralegal type responsibility, but it's also their responsibility to teach you because you do have to pay them a little bit of a fee, but you, and many of those, you actually get paid though. So you're going to come out of that. Having made money rather than spend money. 

Ryan: Right. And even if you do have to pay them, it's not gonna be law school tuition. 

Hannah: No it's fees, it's fees that you have to pay in order to file the apprenticeship. I believe in maintain it with the, with the state. And the difference, like the estimated California did a really useful estimate on the cost of law school versus the cost of apprenticing. And the average cost of apprenticing in California for law of, average costs of law school in California is $150,000. The average cost of four years of this apprenticeship is $5,000. 

Ryan: Right. 

Hannah: Wild. 

Ryan: Yeah. 

Hannah: Wild. 

Ryan: And so, 

Hannah: Someone pointed out to, I read an article about it and someone, this person pointed out that People that do apprentice and then take the bar and they become lawyers that way have a lot more freedom and that there's not that pressure on them to go work for a corporate firm in order to pay their crushing student loans. And a lot of them can then pursue interests that they have in the loss of. So like, a lot of those people go on to work for non-profits because they can, because they, they can even hold down another job if they want to.

And now they have this legal expertise and they can, they can consult, they can work on non-profit. They can work on cases that they just care about and they can, you know, they can help with legislation is cool, actually. 

Ryan: Right. They don't have to service the student debt. 

Hannah: Right. 

Ryan: Right. And especially if you're going to apprentice and you don't have a college degree.

You don't have seven years of schooling to pay for. Right? And so you don't have a hundred thousand dollars of a four year college degree and then $150,000 of law school. You don't have a quarter of a million dollars of debt that you need to, you know service the loan payment on for that, for the foreseeable future.

Hannah: And then a lot of people, it looks like work while they do the apprenticeship as well. Cause it's kind of low time preference, 18 hours a week is not very much. And so a lot of people hold down other jobs as well while they do that. And so they're actually cashflow positive the whole time. 

Ryan: So that's just a little bit of a side note, as far as, you know, the other benefit of possibly going this route.

So one of the things too is. When you do pass the bar in whichever state that you end up going to, if you go to one of these four states, there is reciprocity in a lot of other states that it's a little bit too wonky, and there's a little bit too much to list here, but you can look it up for those four states.

Hannah: Each state, each state has their own set of states that they have reciprocity with. So it's going to vary widely. 

Ryan: Right. And so you've passed the bar in California and you can apply for, you know, for your license in another state because you've passed the bar in California.

Hannah: Correct. Now something here to note, this is where it gets kinda interesting. So overall passage rate for law students who take the bar is 70% first time. Overall passage for apprentices who take the bar is 17%. So it's way lower. What's interesting here is that's overall in those four states that allow the apprentices to take the bar. Now, Washington state has a 56% apprenticeship pass rate of the bar. That's really high, that is higher than some states actual bar passage rate.

So that's interesting because it's actually competitive with cert with other states, as opposed to, if you take the overall and then you, and you average it out. If that 17% is really low, that said, you're looking at a more varied pool and then Washington state has a more structured, has a more structured program. So there's more resources and more support for people who are doing. The apprenticeship. 

Ryan: Right. 

Hannah: And they're actually improving it currently too. Cause it's, it's done well. 

Ryan: Right. And so.

We wants you to have the numbers, because that could help you make an informed decision. Right? I mean, if you're like, well, I don't have the money to go to college and I don't have the money to go to law school. I don't think about doing it in California. Okay. I know whether the pass rate is low, lower than if I were to go to law school, at least you're you have like informed consent, right? Like, at least you know that okay, so that your chances of passing are lower, but you're not gonna go into crushing debt doing it. That's worth it. So now you just have to study that much harder because you know, that you, your chances are lower. 

Hannah: Yup. 

Ryan: Right? Whether or not it's right for you or not only, you can know that right? Only you can do the math and figure out whether or not it makes sense for you. 

Hannah: One interesting thing to note about that too, is that what a lot of, a lot of conjecture about that is that because, because law school teaches all law. All different types of law. You're more likely to pass the bar because the bar is about all types of law.

Whereas if you are apprenticing to somebody who does malpractice lawsuits, and that's all they do, you're only gonna have experienced and malpractice lawsuits, but you'll have a ton of experience in malpractice lawsuits to the point where you could probably run a firm because you would know how to run the business aspect of it.

You're just gonna have a lot more hands on experience. Like, a an apprentice lawyer in the wild, in the, in their, you know, in their field is going to have way, way more experience than a law student lawsuit has none, basically. 

Ryan: Yeah. So actually, one of the things that, you know, we know a couple of lawyers and one of the things, having a discussion with one of them was one of their biggest hurdles is hiring.

And right. There's this person that I'm thinking about right now runs his own firm and pretty small shop. And she's always talking about how, when it comes to hiring is so difficult because he's hiring people right out of law school. They just took the bar or they're about to take the bar and, 

Hannah: They don't know anything.

Ryan: They don't know anything. And he's like, he's like, it's like really crappy, right? Because just like we've talked about in a previous episode, when you get hired for a job doesn't mean, you know how to do the job. It just means like you've had the certifications or you've convinced them well, it well enough that eventually you can learn the job.

Right.? And I have asked this to him before, I'd be like, well, would you take somebody that has, that has apprentice before? And he's like, yeah, absolutely. 

Hannah: Oh, interesting. 

Ryan: Yeah. Well, it just has to do with, but this person knows the job, how to do it. 

Hannah: And this person does not.

Ryan: And this person doesn't, right? 

Hannah: Simple. 

Ryan: And it's a sample size of one, but

Hannah: Interesting nonetheless. 

Ryan: Yeah, go serve the point, right. Or at least illustrate a certain point of it. But yes, lawyers definitely four states, you can do it without a degree or without going to law school. There's three states where you can do it with a degree on some law school. And then if you are the bummer here is if you are from one of those states, that is not one of those four or doesn't have reciprocity with one of those four or at least not maybe from, but if you want to work and live. 

Hannah: In your own state. 

Ryan: In that state or another state that doesn't have reciprocity. 

Hannah: You're gonna have to take the bar twice. 

Ryan: Yeah. 

Hannah: Probably. 

Ryan: Or you're gonna have to go to law school. 

Hannah: Yeah, or you're gonna have to go to law school. 

Ryan: You're gonna go to law school. 

Hannah: Right.

Ryan: And then take the bar that state. 

Hannah: Correct. 

Ryan: There's really no way around it. 

Hannah: No. That's just how it is.

Ryan: Yeah. 

Hannah: Licensure man. That's how it works. 

Ryan: Right. But can you be a lawyer without a college degree? Absolutely. 

Hannah: Yes. I'd like it. I think, I think something too to note is that for a long time, lawyers were one of, one of the oldest. apprenticeship professions. That for a very long time, that that is how lawyers were taught and they were apprentice. That was traditionally how they learned. Law school is a very, is a rather recent, it was a rather recent thing to history. But yeah, very interesting, interesting stuff also, it's called reading the, reading the law is the technical term for apprenticeship. 

Ryan: And I think that's pretty much it for lawyers moving on to the second cohort of careers we're gonna be talking about is going to be teachers. 

Hannah: Yes. We get a lot of blowback for this one. I will say, a lot of people just have a knee jerk reaction of no, you can't be a teacher without a bachelor's degree. These people are incorrect. You do not need a bachelor's degree to teach at a private school. There are 34,000 private schools in the United States was just kind of a lot. And not only that, there are also other forms of teaching, which would be full-time tutoring, teaching for a co-op like a homeschool co-op.

And then also unbeknownst to a lot of people, I think there are quite a few college professors that do not have college degrees. They are known as not all adjuncts, but that would be the category they would fall under professors of practice and professors of industry. And what that means is these are people that have done something in the real world outside of academia.

And they have excelled at that thing so much so, that they submit a portfolio of work and they are allowed to teach because they know what they are talking about. Professionals. In other words. 

Ryan: So, this is all with the caveat that, as far as we know in the public school system in the, in the United. You do need a college degree in order 

Hannah: And that's your full-time substitute. 

Ryan: Right. Unless you're a full-time substitute, but from what we know that's accurate. And if you are a teacher in a public school that doesn't have a college degree, we would love to hear from you contact @degreefreenetwork.com. Just say, hi there. This is one of those things that, I think a lot of people, when we say you don't need a college degree to be a teacher, this is one of those things that people have a really tough time with. As far as that sentence alone is absolutely true. Right? I mean, like you just said, nevermind professors or like there's a, also like a sub class of professional tutors that our teachers as well, that you don't need a college degree to do, like private tutors and stuff like that for all intents and purposes, they are teachers, but, okay. Let's not talk about those either, but a lot of people. They just vehemently disagree with it because when they think of teachers, they think of the public school system. So when you add that caveat in, when you add that qualifier in and you say you cannot be a public school teacher in the United States without a college degree, I'm going to agree with you, but can you be a teacher, a general statement like that? Absolutely. 

Hannah: Yes, like, no question. 

Ryan: There are, there are as how to set 34,000 private schools and those, to my knowledge, 

Hannah: They are not required to require degrees to teach. 

Ryan: Well, to my knowledge, those are schools. 

Hannah: Yes. I mean, I think to anyone's knowledge, they'd be schools. 

Ryan: To my knowledge, they employ teachers.

Hannah: Yes. 

Ryan: At least that's the title of, 

Hannah: That's the job title. 

Ryan: Right. I mean, where they see it on their paycheck or like when they go to the doctor's office, 

Hannah: That's another contract it says teachers. 

Ryan: And it says, and it says, like put your occupation. They're not gonna write like, 

Hannah: When the US census surveys them, they are teachers. 

Ryan: Right. And so therefore, 

Hannah: They are teachers. 

Ryan: Becoming a teacher without a college degree. This one doesn't need, this one's not as involved as the lawyer one. Right? Because all you need to do is you need to convince a private school to give you the job. 

Hannah: Right. 

Ryan: And that could be as simple as okay well, I want to teach history. They, okay, well, this is, this is the type of studying that I've done for history on my own. Here's the blog that I wrote about history. Here's the content pieces that I've put out about history. Here's what I've learned. And here's the way that I convey it to children. 

Hannah: Here's two books that I've written about history. 

Ryan: Right. Exactly. 

Hannah: They're like, oh well, that's pretty impressive. Yeah. Maybe you should teach a shirt.

Ryan: Boom. Here's the job, right? It's not, it's that simple. And it's the same thing with the profession, with the professors adjuncts. 

Hannah: Professors of practice and professors of industry. 

Ryan: Exactly. 

Hannah: Often these people are employed at technical schools also, that should be noted because with those you need, you need experience to teach people how to do practical things.

Ryan: Right. And so that's definitely a teacher in my book as well. I think they would qualify themselves as teachers as well.

Hannah: I think that even somebody who says you can't be a teacher in the United States without a college degree, would have to look at someone who is a teacher, when a classroom full of students. And it would have to admit, yes, this person is a teacher.

Ryan: Right. So for this one, pretty simple, pretty easy to understand this pretty much the whole point, right? I mean, if you want to be a teacher, 

Hannah: You can be a teacher. 

Ryan: Without a college degree, You know, if you want to teach physical education, study how to, you know, educate kids on physicality of how to work out and dodgeball and, well, I don't need to play Dodge ball anymore, but 

Hannah: I don't think they do.

Ryan: Yeah. 

Hannah: Somebody might get hurt, 

Ryan: Yeah. 

Hannah: By the foam balls 

Ryan: And right. Like, figure out how it is to get the job. Put an application into a private school. Boom, you're a teacher, right? 

Hannah: Tadah. 

Ryan: I think that there's something that you were saying earlier off camera that you were talking about, which is there are adult schools as well. 

Hannah: That are technically public schools. And yeah, if you're English as a second language or you have specific technical experience or experience that's just worked for the school, then they will hire you to teach without a degree. Yeah. 

Ryan: Right. And that is also a teacher. 

Hannah: That's also a public school teacher. 

Ryan: Right? 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: So there's a bunch of different avenues. That if you would like to be a teacher, you can accomplish it in different ways. 

Hannah: Right. So what those people are actually just saying is, you can't be a teacher in this manner. Which is, you know, in this narrow definition of my version of a teacher, which is okay. Sure. 

Ryan: And maybe it's not so narrow ought, to be honest with you, maybe it's not so like, as far as how big that bucket is, 

Hannah: Oh, there's way more public schools and private schools. 

Ryan: Right. Exactly. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: That's what I'm saying. So it's like, it's not really, I understand what you're saying like, as far as the like, narrow being like the amount of qualifiers that they use. But that being said, it is the largest. It is the largest set. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: Right. I mean, 

Hannah: I agree. 

Ryan: The vast majority of teachers are public school teachers. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: And to be a public school teacher, you need a college degree. 

Hannah: Yes. 

Ryan: Right? I mean, we established that. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: But that is not the only way that's all we're saying. 

Hannah: Correct. This is probably my biggest pet peeve, which just got into some, just got into this with some people on Twitter who were vehemently telling me that people cannot be software developers unless they have a college degree.

What's funny is they were telling me this on Twitter, which was a entire software application that was designed by somebody who does not have a college degree. So that was funny and they're probably, they were probably, they were probably on Twitter, on their iPhone, which was also created by two people that did not have college degrees, which is, which is funny.

But anyway, the point here is that a lot of people believe you cannot work in software development or computer science without a degree. The biggest survey they've ever done of software developers showed that 56% of them do not have a degree or do not have a degree in computer science or any related field.

So they have no relevant experience to computer science at all. And yet they are software developers. And then on top of that, 69% of that same group of people reported that they were either fully or partially self-taught, which means that they did not get their experience through a college. Even more interesting than that is that 48% of job listings now for software developers or programmers does not say anything about a college degree bachelor's degree, anything of that at all. And then 52% of the remaining jobs to say it's a preference or a requirement. Which means that not all of them are requiring it. It just says preference, which is my, my, my experience, getting a job in tech, where it said it required a degree and then I applied without a degree and got the job. So. 

Ryan: So I want to backpedal a little bit to that first that you gave about the survey of the 56% of people saying that they didn't have a college degree or they didn't have a college degree in the re, in the relevant field of computer science or you know software development or whatever, the, the major is gonna be, whatever the degree is going to be conferred in. So, to play devil's advocate or at least to kind of like chop that up. We don't know how many of those people actually have college degrees. 

Hannah: Correct. 

Ryan: Right? And so, I mean, If you wanted to, you could say, well, these people that had college degrees in political science, it helped them with computer science. Or you could say that like, if they got a degree in kinesiology or geology or astronomy, it helped them in computer science because it helped them what people normally say is I can help them become educated and help them to learn and learn how to learn. And learn how, 

Hannah: When we could say that? 

Ryan: And learn how to excel. I'm just, 

Hannah: When we could say that? 

Ryan: I'm just being, I'm just trying to be honest about these things, because we're not trying to hide anything here. 

Hannah: No, no.

Ryan: Right? And so, it needs to be said that, that we don't know 

Hannah: Didn't know to break them. 

Ryan: How many of those people actually have degrees. 

Hannah: Correct. 

Ryan: And if you want to say that, a certain subset, let's say all of those people have degrees, right? And like, we don't know whether or not that degree was a reason why they've excelled at computer science because they got a degree in kinesiology.

Hannah: But one may guess. 

Ryan: I, I don't know. I'm not sure. 

Hannah: And the main reason I think that's a weak argument is because the people who tend to say you can't be a software developer without a computer science degree. That's what they say. They say that you need a computer science degree to be a software developer. They're very specific. 

Ryan: Yeah. 

Hannah: And, and then no, no, no. I, I agree with you. I agree with what you're saying. Sure one could say that their degree in art history just push them to Excel and software development because art history has a lot to do with coding. But, I do think it's interesting, it's just because people are so insistent and so overwhelmingly smug about the fact that they do not believe that software developers.

They, they don't believe people can develop software without, without a college degree, which is just patently foolish. I mean, it's just silly. I think it's silly. And then you look at the breakdown of companies too, and again, you can't see the breakdown of the actual job titles of these people, but good examples like Tim Cook's coming out a couple months ago and saying that half of half of the people that work at apple don't have college degrees, you know, and it's been, it's been like that for a long time. And the reason is because you don't have college degree to develop software. 

Ryan: Yeah, you don't need, you don't need a college degree to learn abstract thinking. You don't need, you don't need a college degree to learn how to figure out how to solve problems. 

Hannah: Well, the main thing is you don't need a college degree to learn how to do something that is 100% internet accessible and free.

Ryan: Yeah. 

Hannah: Like, 

Ryan: Well not, let's say that everybody does it free and it, it, you know. 

Hannah: No, no for sure. But I'm just saying that like you don't, you do not need a college degree to, to teach yourself something that is available with a free resource. You do not, you can teach yourself with free. You can teach yourself the free resource or many of the low cost resources.

The reason I think that this is such a large, this is such a large slant in, in this specific space is because it's internet based, which means that it brings the cost down and it brings the accessibility up something that college cannot do because it's so cost prohibitive for most people. 

Ryan: Yeah. I think a lot of people, that also this is just an anecdote, but like, you know, we know some software developers and a lot of them don't have college degrees, 

Hannah: Half of the ones that I've worked with do not. 

Ryan: Right, exactly. And when we hire people that, you know, this is, and this is us, but when we hire people to do software development, we don't ever ask if they have college degrees, and don't, 

Hannah: We don't care if you build a website?

Ryan: I don't care. Can you do what I need you to do? Like, show me your portfolio what can you do? 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: Right. Like, okay, that's what you can do, that's what you did. All right. You're hired. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: Right? Like, that's, that's the extent of it. Nobody cares 

Hannah: Their, their papers never come into, never come into it because it literally doesn't matter.

Ryan: Right. And so it's just, this one for you, well yeah for me too. It's just a funny one because, we know people that literally do this job without a college degree. And then we have people telling us that, 

Hannah: It's impossible. 

Ryan: That's impossible to do the job without a college degree. 

Hannah: Like, I promise you it's not. 

Ryan: Should we, should we tell that person that's doing, have been doing the job for 10 plus years? Should we, 

Hannah: Let them know? 

Ryan: Should we tell them that they should quit? 

Hannah: Like, hey, I don't know if you knew this, but these people on Twitter that aren't software developers said that you can't be a software developer because you don't have a college degree. 

Ryan: And so, so you kind of end a rant and to make it a little bit more actionable at the end here,

Hannah: I never went in this one.

Ryan: Yeah, there are a lot of options in order to be software developers or a coder or a programmer, whatever it is, work in computer science. There are a lot of resources that you can teach yourself how to do it for free or for very low costs. And there are also, you know classes or boot camps or things like that.

Hannah: Courses so much stuff guys. 

Ryan: That you can take in order to become proficient at writing code and everything software. 

Hannah: And not, not even just developing, but all the things around it to supporting things now. The, and it's software developers have done a lot to show, it, it's, it's largely them and they've pushed this. I think that have kind of pushed us forward, but like, you don't need a degree to do a lot of jobs. And especially a lot of newer jobs, they just need to be done and people do not care. They just care if you've done something similar, they just care if you have the competency to do it, they care if you've done it before and you can in, you know, you'd work building tech, or you can work maintaining or operations tech, and you can do all kinds of stuff. Because there's quite a few jobs around this too, that now this, that stigma is just being rolled back and rolled back and rolled back by tech jobs. 

Ryan: Right. And so one of the things that I think needs to be said is going to be like to kind of the word I always use, like vocational creativity to kind of help us understand what other kinds of jobs there are in software development, you don't necessarily have to think. Cause when I think of software development, I think somebody building a platform from the ground up, right? Like, we are going to be building a new Twitter. Right? And we are going to start from nothing and we're gonna build it all the way up, but there's a lot of jobs that are quote unquote software development, but you're developing within an established ecosystem already. Right? So an example that you're familiar with and that, the longtime listeners here would be familiar with is going to be like Salesforce. Like you can be a software developer of Salesforce. 

Hannah: Yes. 

Ryan: Right? Like you could be a software developer of, you know, a certain CRM, right? You could be a software developer of integration between two existing massive platforms. Right? And there's a lot of ways to get into the industry and there's a lot of ways to get hired, create your own job. You know to learn the skills that you need, all of that. 

Hannah: Yep. 

Ryan: And you know, it just takes some research, 

Hannah: Exploration. 

Ryan: Exactly. Some exploration, some thinking outside of the box, even as well. 

Hannah: In conclusion, you definitely do not need a college degree to be a software developer.

Ryan: Yeah. 

Hannah: And then some of you, some of you can take my word for it. And the rest of you that if, if any of you go in and you decide to go this route, once you get on a team just look around and you'll realize that half the people you work with, don't have, don't have college degrees. 

Ryan: Yep, definitely. And I'm moving on. We have a couple more and then I think that's pretty much it for today, but moving on the next one is going to be pilots.

We, 

Hannah: This is a good one. 

Ryan: We hear that a lot, like that you need a college degree in order to become a pilot and this makes sense. I think in many ways, because a lot of people when you think of pilots, you're thinking about like commercial airline pilots for passenger vehicles. 

Hannah: Which some still this is their policy to hire that, to require a degree for hiring.

Ryan: Yes. 

Hannah: Some of them. 

Ryan: Some of them. And, but not all of them. 

Hannah: No. 

Ryan: As, as time goes on and pilot shortages are you know, it's still happening and increasing a lot of companies are rolling it back. 

Hannah: Because they have to. 

Ryan: Because there's not a very large pool of pilots out there that are qualified and not qualified in having a degree, but rather qualified in having the amount of hours that they need as a pilot. Right? And so a lot of the, I just want to address the, the reason why this is a stigma or the reason why this is a

Hannah: People think this.

Ryan: Yeah. People think this.

Hannah: This perception. 

Ryan: Is because a lot of people are seeing airline pilots and a lot of airline pilots are ex- military pilots. 

Hannah: Especially the older generations. 

Ryan: Right, exactly.

Hannah: They almost all came up through military training. 

Ryan: Right. Which makes sense because when you're in the military and you're a pilot, you're flying but you're getting paid to fly. And so, so the airline industry, the pilot industry is very unique in that you really need a set amount of hours in order to reach different levels of being a pilot.

Right? And if you're getting paid, just like if you're in the military, then, it, your economics, personal finances are going the opposite way from somebody that who's a civilian who needs to pay every time they, 

Hannah: Go in there. 

Ryan: Exactly. And so, it would make sense that at a certain time, a lot of the pilots had college degrees because they were in the military. 

Hannah: And you have to have a college degree to be a pilot in the military unless you're warrant officer.

Ryan: I believe so. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: And, so that is why this is such a common you know, thought. 

Hannah: Yeah. It's just like a, because of where the pool was coming from people just think that, but that's not the reality of the requirements actually, yeah. 

Ryan: There are many people who do not have college degrees that are pilots. 

Hannah: Yes. 

Ryan: A lot. 

Hannah: How many wha, like what, what do you think the breakdown is? If you had to guess?

Ryan: That is a good question.

Hannah: Just base on your own experience. 

Ryan: I, you know, I have no fricking clue to be completely honest. I have no idea. I have no idea. And it depends because,

Hannah: So a lot of different types of pilots too, that's another thing. 

Ryan: There are different pilots, right? There are different, there are different types, there are different types of pilots, not only the aircraft in which you fly, but then also in what you do. Right? And so you, 

Hannah: Agricultural cargo. 

Ryan: Exactly. And then you could be like a, you could be a instructor as well. 

Hannah: You could be an emergency helicopter pilot. 

Ryan: Right. And so, but all this suffice to say that, you do not need a college degree to become a working pilot. 

Hannah: Yes.

Ryan: To get paid, to do the job. 

Hannah: No. 

Ryan: Right. It's just going to be very expensive and this is not even with a college degree, it's just going to be very expensive without the military, 

Hannah: Right. Because the military spends on average between one and $10 million to train their pilots, that's a lot of money. 

Ryan: Right.

Hannah: Like that's a lot of money. 

Ryan: Yeah, and you are gonna, as a private citizen you're gonna go on and you're going to get private flight instruction that can range from, you know, if you're going to a cheap place depending on if your trip, depending on if you're flying fixed wing or rotary 4,000 to $10,000, you know what I mean, to get your private pilots license, depending on your, you know, depending on that's just the first, that's just the first wrong.

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: And the only reason why I know any of this is that I used to work at, you know, I used to work in the industry. I'm not a pilot myself, but I used to work in the industry. And so was difficult as a civilian is that, you have to pay for the maintenance, you have to pay for your flight time, you have to pay, you have to pay the instructor to instruct you. 

Hannah: Yeah.

Ryan: You have to, you have to pay for fuel, you have to pay for your simulator time. It's like really, really, really, really, really, really expensive. And like I said, that has nothing to do with your college degree. 

Hannah: And then you saw too, while, while you were working in the industry, you saw kids. They had their license.

Ryan: Yeah. At least private pilot's license. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: Like, there, 

Hannah: Before they could drive. 

Ryan: There are people that had, that were pilots before they had their license. Yeah, definitely. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: So, this is all to say that you do not need a college degree to be a pilot. What you need is a lot of money. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: Like. 

Hannah: What do you need is cash. 

Ryan: Yeah. What you need is a lot of money and, 

Hannah: Still sometimes less than a college degree though.

Ryan: Yeah, it, it can be less. 

Hannah: Yeah, 

Ryan: At least to get to the point where you are getting paid to get your flight time, right? It can be less depending on where you go, depending on. And there are, there are schools, pilot schools out there that will accept you without a college degree. Right? And you go there and it's you know, six months, eight months, two years, whatever it is program and your, get all of your, you get all of your hours, right? In order, in order to get you where you need to be in order to get a job I'm not sure how much those fights schools are, but you know, you can look it up, but this is all to say, you definitely do not need a degree to be a working pilot, right? Maybe out a specific company that has a requirement that they only hire people with a college degree, possibly that being said, if you are a pilot and you have the amount of hours that they need, and you don't have a college degree. I would just apply because if nobody else is applying, they're gonna give you the job, because it doesn't matter. And so finally, the one that we are going to be talking about next is going to be architects.

Hannah: Yes, the national council of architectural registration boards rolls off the tongue. It's called the end carb. We're going to call it that from now on, because I can only get through that one time. So recently, and by recently, I mean, within the last 10 years, they rolled out a certification path for architects who do not have college degrees that involved nine years of experience.

And then a test that costs $500. This is done so well. And basically what this is, you go in with nine years of relevant architectural work experience. Like you've worked onsite, you know, you've done, you done drafting, you have relevant architectural work experience. And you submit, you know, you, you, you prove, you prove the nine years of experience and then you take this exam. And once you take the exam, they will certify you and you are now an architect now this is a well that they have also allowed people, a secondary certification path to become an architect. And what that is, is you actually just submit a portfolio of work. And they review it and they decide whether or not you have sufficient performance to be an architect.

So there's not the time requirement. It's simply based on work, on work done. And they say, yes, this person has completed the amount of work required to be an architect. And it's not based on years. It's just based on volume, quality. What have you. 

Ryan: So prior to this, though, you did need a college degree. Prior to the end carb was what we're going to call it. You didn't need a college degree to become an architect. 

Hannah: Yes, but that was also, that was also more recent because there was also not that long ago and I believe it was like, was it 50? 50 to 60 years ago, you do not need a college degree to be an architect again, so it was a very recent, it was like, you could, you could be an architect without a college degree, and then you couldn't and then now you can again, so. 

Ryan: Right, right. 

Hannah: Yeah. Full circle, as, as with most things, it's a cycle. 

Ryan: Yeah. And so definitely one of those things that's like same thing with being the lawyer, you're gonna have to actually do work upfront. 

Hannah: It's not easy to find this information. You have to do a lot of likework to find it. 

Ryan: But not only that, but what I mean is, you're gonna have to do work as an architect or you're gonna have to do work in order to become one or at least be certified in order to do so. But, you might not have to go into debt to do it. 

Hannah: You know, it, they, I've only known two architects in, in my, in my life, like a two, I've known somebody who was technically an architect, but didn't go to school to be an architect and was more of a construction bent person. But I've known two people who were architects like going to school to be architects. Both of them were in school for eight years. So I looked at that and I was like, it seems like you could just work and get the same result. I don't know if either of those two people completed school. All I know is that they were still in school to be architects and they were on year eight. So I can only imagine how it much money they were spending to do that.

Ryan: Right. Exactly. 

Hannah: One of, one of them was spending $40,000 per quarter at the school he, that was quarters and it was $40,000 a quarter. So, a lot of money. 

Ryan: That is a lot of money. And so hopefully he's making millions of dollars a year now. 

Hannah: I doubt it, but yes, I hope he does do. 

Ryan: That would be great. 

Hannah: He's got to build houses like Frank, Frank Lloyd Wright, otherwise out of luck.

Ryan: Yeah. So, like I said, this is something that you're gonna have to do work prior, and you're gonna have to build your portfolio. 

Hannah: Show your work. 

Ryan: You're gonna have to show that you can do the job, obviously, just like with all the other things. You're gonna have to convince this end car, 

Hannah: The board.

Ryan: The board that you should be certified as an architect, but if you do so you can become one. 

Hannah: Correct. 

Ryan: And therefore you can be an architect without a college degree.

Hannah: Yes. 

Ryan: Yeah. I think that's pretty much it for today. You know, I think the, the, the common theme with today is that there are a bunch of jobs out there that people think you need a college degree for, but you don't. And, we're not saying that the alternative route, you know, quote unquote is easier, but it's there.

And it's probably harder in a lot of aspects because you actually have to work. 

Hannah: Yeah.

Ryan: And, but if you do it and you accomplish it, you know, you didn't have to go into debt by going to college. 

Hannah: Correct. 

Ryan: Right. So a good example is like the, the lawyers, when we first started talking about this, I mean, if you know, that 17% is the pass rate for the bar, you know, across these four states, and one go to Washington.

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: Right. So to like

Hannah: That's just like an add for Washington state's apprenticeship law program.

Ryan: Right, it is 56%. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: But okay. You don't, but you. but you don't want to move there and you gonna move somewhere else or you're already in the state and one of the states. Okay, well at least, you know, right? Like you're informed now and now you can work harder and you can gain the experience and 

Hannah: Be in that 17%.

Ryan: Right, exactly. You know, you can be a statistic for the other way. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: Right. 

Hannah: I think that, that's all for today. If you wanna get more information like this, like different ideas for degree free careers and options, resources for how to learn, and then just news about new, new pathways that are opening up for people to get work and, and get jobs, then sign up for our newsletter it's at degreefreenetwork.com. Just run on over there and sign up. It is free. 

Ryan: Yeah, definitely. And if you haven't already please like and subscribe. We would definitely love to have you as a loyal listener. You can follow me on social media @ryankmaruyama Hannah is @hannahmaruyama and the podcast is @degreefreepod.

That's it, until next time guys, Aloha.