January 11, 2023

How to Brute Force Your Way Into Work: Volume Applying - Ep. 79

How to Brute Force Your Way Into Work & Get The Job You Want Through Volume Applying

Here's How To Make Every Application Count

The job market is tough: It takes a hundred applications to land an interview, and here's how you can make every application count and brute force your way into work!

In this episode, we talk about:

- How to brute force your way into work in the current tough job market through volume applying
- Why job hunting can be lonely and frustrating, and what you can do to mitigate it
- The little things you can do to improve your odds of getting hired

Ryan and Hannah also talked about how you can make connections online the right way and why it's fine to apply for the same job many times.

Fun fact: Hannah applied for a job once, 17 times!

Enjoy the episode!

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Links and Notes from the Episode

Episode Transcript
Please enjoy this transcript or our episode!

Please note the transcript may have a few errors. We're human. It can be hard to catch all the errors from a full length conversation. Enjoy!

Ryan: Aloha folks, and welcome back to Degree Free. We are your hosts, Ryan and Hannah Maruyama.

Ryan: On this podcast, we share fundamentals we've discovered and the mistakes we've made. While self-educating, getting work, building businesses and making money, we'll tell you how to make it happen, no degree needed. 

Hannah: Welcome back. Welcome back folks. We are happy to have you with us as always, and if you want more degree free because why would you not?

Hannah: You are gonna wanna run, not walk over to degree free.co/newsletter because every week Ryan and I send out a newsletter that has all kinds of cool stuff, resources, degree free news, like companies that are rolling back degree requirements that Ryan and I think you need to know. So in order to get that for free, deliver to your inbox, go on over and sign up.

Ryan: Awesome. And, let's get into today's episode. Today we are gonna be talking about how to brute force your way into work.

Hannah: Yes. 

Ryan: And we are gonna be doing that by using the volume applying process. 

Hannah: So you're basically just gonna steamroll a company into letting you work for them. 

Ryan: Exactly. Kind of. 

Hannah: Kind of.

Ryan: Sort of. Or a bunch of companies. In a bunch of roles. 

Hannah: All the companies.

Ryan: Yes. And I do want to say that this show has kind of a how-to guide that we created to go along with it. There's gonna be like a template for you. To use in your outreach cuz we're gonna go do outreach and stuff. So you can find that at degreefree.co/volumeapply and the article's gonna be there. Show notes are gonna be in the new usual place, degree free.co/podcast and you can go and find the show notes there as well and will link everything. So if you don't remember slash volume apply. You can just go to the podcast and it'll be, yeah, it'll be linked. Also, this process is the exact process that Drake Porter, who is a senior product manager at Meta, used to get his job and make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. 

Hannah: With no degree.

Ryan: With no degree. This is the exact process we had this exact process, or at least half of it. before we heard Drake's process, you and I used to tell people to do exactly the same thing, but just the first half of it. 

Hannah: Right. And then he came along and just revamped the whole thing. 

Ryan: Exactly. 

Ryan: And he was 

Hannah: way better.

Ryan: It was blew my mind. Really. Yeah. And you can definitely see that in the interview with that I did with Drake. Degree free.co/drakeporter. Even if you're not in product and if you're thinking about going into tech or you're thinking about making a career transition, I think there's something in that interview for everybody.

Ryan: So definitely go and check that out.

Hannah: Yeah, it's hard to oversell that interview folks. If you're looking for a job, might possibly ever want a job, need a job, wanna work, if you wanna do anything, pretty much, I feel like you should listen to that interview because it really will just amp you up and encourage you a lot and kind of make you feel like anything's possible. 

Ryan: Definitely. 

Ryan: And final thing before we get into the medium potatoes of it is that this is part of the degree free pathways that we've come up with and a little bit on that we were constantly asked, what can people do? What can I do instead of go to college?

Ryan: What can I do instead of going back to college? What can I do now that my degree that I have is no longer serving me? And I don't wanna work in that industry or whatever, or say you've got a psychology or communications degree and that like doesn't qualify you for any work and you're like, okay, so what can I do?

Hannah: Oh, no. 

Ryan: And so, right. I know. Well, whatever. If you're listening to this podcast, that shouldn't hurt your feelings , and there five ways that you can do that. We won't belabor 'em here, but you can go back and listen to the episode on the Five Degree Free Pathways and we also created a blog article, another how-to guide of all of that.

Ryan: And so that is all of the preamble. Oh, I wanted to say that. This is part of Pathway One. Which is get a job and this is useful for any job that you're gonna be looking at. 

Ryan: Right, exactly. 

Ryan: So let's just get into it. First thing I wanna talk about is what most people do, right? And so most people when applying for jobs, this is what they do.

Hannah: Oh, if I had to guess, let's see. LinkedIn, Indeed and monster.com. Do people still apply for jobs on there? 

Ryan: I believe that monster.com is still a thing. Yes. So people, you're exactly right. So people go to LinkedIn, they go to Indeed, they go to Monster, or they go to some other job board and they find the job that they like or find a job that they like.

Ryan: They applied to that role through the site that they're already on, and then they repeat it for the next job. Alright, that's great. That's what most people do. There's a few things that we don't like about that and we'll see when we get into the process. But first, applying on LinkedIn Indeed, or other job boards, we don't reall trust those things. Not that we don't trust them, it's just that, 

Hannah: I mean, I don't know. They're a little suspicious. 

Ryan: Yeah, no. Yeah, exactly. 

Hannah: Something-

Ryan: trusting them like-

Hannah: a little sus a little sketchy.

Ryan: I know that's such a silly way for me to say that, but like, 

Hannah: no, but for real though, the last, and this is funny, it's funny that you say this, but like the last few weeks, the thing that's been trending on LinkedIn is the fact that people are getting scammed on there. Remember, I just read Ryan the story the other day about, this lady with the MBA who linked her bank account to a company. 

Ryan: Oh, right, right, right.

Hannah: And then let them, it was some scheme, but then someone on our TikTok actually said that they applied for a LinkedIn job and they got scammed as well. 

Hannah: So, a little sketch.

Ryan: Yeah. It totally happens. 

Hannah: Yeah. Anyone who's listening do not give your bank account information to a company claiming that they're gonna pay you to reimburse you for laptops or what have you.

Hannah: That's not real. 

Ryan: Yeah, exactly.

Hannah: Apparently that needs to be said. 

Ryan: But not that I don't trust them. That's not really what I meant. What I meant is that with LinkedIn, indeed, monster and other job boards, a lot of times the hiring manager or the recruiters or whatever, they're gonna have to check those third party things, and obviously it's part of their job and they should be doing it and everything like that, but things happen. Things slip through a crack, exactly, with LinkedIn and Indeed, I'm sure that they're, they get like notifications on the platform and then emails with some other smaller job boards.

Ryan: You probably, it's probably just an email to that hiring manager's email. 

Hannah: I wonder if it's maybe even just one email a day too, right. With all of their notifications, depending on how many jobs that they, 

Ryan: but the main thing is that it's an email and emails get buried. 

Hannah: They do.

Ryan: And if their email looks like most other people's emails, they're getting a gajillion a day and it can get buried.

Ryan: I mean, it's their job for it to not get buried but shit happens. 

Hannah: Yeah. It does. 

Ryan: And so when I say I don't trust it, really, I would rather go to the company's website and trust their internal processes. 

Hannah: Ah, so it's showing up on their internet or whatever. Even you might be more of a priority or you might get an email and an internet notification type thing.

Ryan: Exactly. That's exactly right. 

Ryan: Sure, and alright. It might also just go to their email too, 

Hannah: but you don't know. 

Ryan: But yeah, we don't know. 

Ryan: So that

Hannah: your due diligence, 

Ryan: yeah, this is just a hypothesis and so this is what we're gonna do. That's why we don't like the current process. Sure. Another reason why we don't like the current process is that as you notice, it's very linear.

Ryan: It's very one task after another. You go to LinkedIn, you find the job, you apply, then you rinse repeat and so the reason why we don't like that is because there's task switching involved. 

Hannah: It slows you down. 

Ryan: Exactly. And so like we said at the beginning, this is how to brute force your way into a job and the way that we're gonna do that, like we said, is by applying to a lot of jobs.

Hannah: A ton .

Ryan: Depending on the surveys that you look at for a long time, listeners, you already know these numbers, and it takes a hundred applications to get one interview or to get one job offer.

Hannah: Yeah. To get an offer. 

Ryan: We like to be conservative and we like to say it takes a hundred applications to get one interview.

Ryan: Yeah. 

Ryan: And so because of that, we wanna minimize the amount of times that we're switching in between tasks. So we wanna minimize looking for jobs and then applying to them. We are gonna batch the tasks we're gonna look for and then we're gonna apply to them. And the last reason why we don't like the current process is that there's no outreach for referrals.

Hannah: Right. And if you got a job by just applying Easy Ply on LinkedIn, great. That's awesome. If that's worked for you, fantastic. For a lot of people that's gonna be difficult just cuz it's a lot. 

Hannah: That's a lot.

Ryan: And as I said before, we had two thirds of this. We had the look for jobs at one time, apply to them at one time but then we didn't have the outreach. And so, 

Hannah: and that's the one two punch I think. 

Ryan: Yeah. This is the perfect combination between quantity of outreach, volume, applying, and then quality. And so it's a pretty simple process. Yeah, it really is. And I'll kind of break it down now. There are three steps.

Ryan: Super simple. Search and save jobs, apply on the company's website, and then connect with people to make connections and possibly get a referral. 

Hannah: Yeah. And doing these in without switching between each task, really, it seems like it would make the process longer, but actually it makes it a lot faster. 

Ryan: Yeah. Because you're, as we talked about, you're in that mode of doing it. 

Hannah: Like today, all we're doing is searching and saving jobs. 

Ryan: Sure.

Hannah: We're gonna save 20 

Ryan: and, and, and. I'm glad that you said that because you can do it by day but you can also do it by time slot. 

Hannah: Yeah. So you could do an hour of searching and saving an hour of applying in an hour of outreach.

Ryan: Exactly. 

Ryan: Or you could do it by count and you can say, well, if I'm gonna apply to jobs every single day and I know that it takes a hundred, Monday through Friday, I'm going to apply to 20 jobs a day and then so you could do, you could also batch it like that. And so when you. When you're done searching and saving 20 jobs, then you move on to applying to them, and then you move on to trying to connect with people and to kind of break it down a little bit more, like I said, people, there is an in-depth article about this and you can read and have examples, degree free.co/volumeapply.

Hannah: If you're planning to do this, definitely check this out cuz it, it'll just be really helpful for you to refer back to it if you get stuck. 

Ryan: Exactly. And we'll just quickly go over the steps. So the first is gonna be search and save jobs. That's pretty self-explanatory. And let's just use, I dunno, gimme a job.

Hannah: Let's do social media manager. 

Ryan: Sure. Social media manager. And we're gonna put in all of the regular qualifiers at the end, right? If you're looking for a job in a specific city, or if you're looking for a remote job or whatever, then you know, put the qualifiers at the end, so social media manager, you're gonna jobs and you're gonna put type that into Google and through Google Jobs you're just gonna go ahead and favorite things.

Ryan: And you can also look on LinkedIn. You can also look on Indeed and same things, social media manager, jobs, remote, whatever. go to each one of these things and go ahead and favorite star, whatever you have to do if you're on a smaller job board or something like that, like something that doesn't have the feature to save, like to create a login and save jobs, then you could use something like Pocket, or

Hannah: you use a bookmark feature , if you're being really simple. 

Ryan: Exactly. You can use something like Pocket. You can use Evernote. You can use bookmarks. 

Hannah: We'll Link Pocket in In the show notes too. 

Ryan: Exactly. 

Hannah: Because some people might not know what that is.

Ryan: One of the other things that you could use is you could use a job application tracker. 

Hannah: Oh, like a in Excel. 

Ryan: Exactly. Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be an Excel spreadsheet, although I believe. That's the easiest way or maybe not easiest, 

Hannah: simplest, cheapest.

Ryan: The most thorough way of doing it.

Hannah: Because you input all the information. 

Ryan: Yes. And if you guys want, if you guys don't have a job application tracker, we made one for you and you will link it in the show notes. Degree free.co/podcast. 

Hannah: Ryan made one for you?.

Ryan: Yeah, sure. Well, yeah, it's a team effort. 

Ryan: Team effort. 

Ryan: We made one and it's free. We could just go and download it.

Ryan: Google Sheets or Excel, there's both.

Hannah: Super useful 

Ryan: Exactly. And it'll just help you keep all of it in order and the status of it, the one that I made is probably a little bit too advanced, but I made a little explainer video and so you can kind of delete what you don't need, but if, 

Ryan: Yeah, if you're 

Hannah: more like me and I tend to put in the basic very, very basic information when I'm doing that.

Hannah: So if you want to, you can delete columns until you get to the columns that you wanna have. 

Ryan: Exactly. And like we said, this is one. So go to your favorite job board. ZipRecruiter, monster, Indeed. LinkedIn, Google's jobs, Social Media Manager jobs, remote and then you're just gonna go ahead and favorite all of them.

Hannah: I will say here too, you can go to any of those job boards. My personal recommendation is to Google jobs. I've found more success with that, simply because there's less competition for those jobs.

Ryan: Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's definitely a 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Hannah: People don't search that way. They search. They search on job boards, it's more difficult to Google the jobs, but, it's, I found, I think that those jobs have less competition.

Ryan: Sure.

Hannah: Yeah. That's my theory,

Ryan: And once you're done saving your 20 or a hundred, however much you're doing at this time, you're done. That's all of step one and so the second step, Is gonna be to apply on the company's website. Now we wanna apply on the company's website for all the reasons that we stated before, so I won't belabor that here.

Ryan: There's a few ways of finding the company's website. The first. Is gonna be to just Google the company. So social media manager at acmecorp, just go to Acmecorp website, go to their careers or jobs, and then manually find the job listing and see if it matches. Okay, perfect. Now you're gonna, you're gonna go apply on Acmecorp's job

Hannah: That's a good way to double check too. If you think something might be a scam, go check. Yeah, true. I think that's why that's happened is becausepeople don't. Go off to the actual website. 

Ryan: And the other way is to use Google and you can just say, social media manager, jobs, remote acne corp. And then hopefully it pops up and hopefully it's index and hopefully it pops up.

Ryan: But it might not be because jobs aren't indexed or not, maybe not, aren't indexed, but they're so fluid they change so quickly. So maybe they're not, maybe it won't be indexed. Anyway, that's a whole , 

Ryan: that's whole other two worms. 

Ryan: Yeah. That's a whole nother story.

Ryan: The difficult part here that I do wanna point out is how do we rank which jobs we are gonna be applying to first?

Hannah: That's a great question, how. 

Ryan: I think the best way to rank these jobs is literally in the order that you found them. So the job application tracker, you're grabbing the URL and you're pasting it in your job application tracker. 

Hannah: Whichever one you found first. 

Ryan: Exactly whichever one you find first.

Ryan: Whatever your favorite did, just go down the list and apply to those jobs. 

Hannah: Is that so you don't waste time trying to figure out what order to put them in? 

Ryan: That's for a couple of reasons. Yes. That is one of them because what we see with some people is that they'll rank the jobs like, this is the one I want most. I'm gonna apply to it first. 

Ryan: If I get it, well then I'm done. Like, I'm done. I'm done with my job search. I know that I want this job the most.

Hannah: I see. 

Ryan: And so, then I'm done. Alright, that's good but I prefer not to do it that way. The reason why is because now you've added a whole 'nother task of ranking all of these things, 

Hannah: and that's decision exhaustion.

Hannah: I can actually see putting off, applying, because I don't wanna sit around and do that and put that thought into that. 

Ryan: Exactly. 

Hannah: Yeah.

Ryan: Now you have to, I have to decide, well, oh, do I wanna be a social media manager, support staff at Acmecorp or at whatever, 

Hannah: Pinterest. 

Ryan: Exactly,

Ryan: and it's like, okay, well 

Ryan: if you just, 

Hannah: well, I'm not sure, so I'm gonna think about it for a couple days.

Ryan: Yeah, true. 

Hannah: You know what I mean? 

Ryan: Yeah. 

Hannah: Like I could totally see that and then the job listings expired and then you just don't apply at all. Now, you're still unemployed three three weeks later. 

Ryan: That is true.

Hannah: You can see how the spiral would happen. 

Hannah: Definitely. 

Hannah: I feel like that's probably happened to me before, to be honest.

Hannah: That seemed really vivid . 

Ryan: Yeah. 

Ryan: And I think just going down an order kind of eliminates that exactly what you said, decision exhaustion. 

Hannah: Just act.

Ryan: Just go down an order. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: If it's on your list, you should be applying to it. So

Hannah: apply to all of them.

Ryan: You're gonna apply to all of 'em anyway. Why not? So just go down the list to each their own.

Hannah: Hey man, the logic checks out for that one. I think that makes a lot of sense to just copy paste em in the order we found them and go apply to all of them. 

Ryan: There are a few frequently asked questions when we talk about this with people. And the first is, can I apply in both places? And the answer is yes, of course.

Hannah: Yeah. Why not? 

Ryan: Sure. If you wanna apply in both places, go for it. 

Hannah: If you're worried that they're gonna be annoyed, I promise you that they will not. I have once applied to the same job 17 times, right?

Hannah: They did get the job.

Ryan: That's something that's, there's a similarity between what you did and then in my interview with Robin Altucher, she did the same thing. She applied to the same job for every week. For like a year or something like that.

Hannah: Yep. That's basically what that's basically what I did. 

Ryan: Right. And they're not gonna be annoyed. 

Hannah: No. 

Ryan: They eventually gave her the job.

Hannah: They might've been annoyed, but they gave it to me anyway.

Ryan: Right, exactly. 

Ryan: And so that's just, it's good if the hiring manager sees you. There and they see you there. Perfect. 

Hannah: Great. 

Hannah: The more they see your name, the better. 

Ryan: Exactly. And sure there might be the outlier company that's like, well, you didn't listen to the instructions and you should have done it. 

Hannah: Okay.

Hannah: You don't wanna work for them. 

Ryan: You don't wanna work for them anyway. 

Ryan: Yeah. You're never getting that job. 

Hannah: They're going nowhere fast. 

Ryan: Yeah, exactly. Screw that. Don't worry about it. Especially because we are, once again, we're brute forcing our way into work and the way that we're doing that is by volume applying.

Hannah: Yeah. You're gonna apply as much as many times as humanly possible. 

Ryan: And the second question is, What if the job listing is only on the job board and I can't find it anywhere else? If you have looked for it, the two ways that we talked about by going to the company's website and then by Googling it, look, it might be that they use that job board for their job listings.

Hannah: That is true, and I will say, cuz I've talked about the scams a couple times in this episode. I will say that there are companies, sometimes startups too will use external job boards only, and they don't have their own yet. That does happen. So just avoid anybody who's gonna ask you for money if they're trying to get you to link your bank accounts or trying to get you to give them money.

Hannah: It's not a job. It's a scam. 

Hannah: There is a Nigerian print on the other side. Yeah, like it's, they're not gonna. They're gonna steal your money, . 

Ryan: And if they don't use another job board, well then just apply there. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: If you can't find it anywhere else. Alright, well you did your due diligence and just apply where you can apply.

Ryan: That's it. So that's the second step. So, that is what we've been telling people to do for years. 

Hannah: Yeah. Long time. 

Ryan: Long time. That exact thing is what we've been telling people to do for years. 

Hannah: And then Drake at a left field, 

Hannah: at a left field. 

Ryan: He comes and drops this last, this third step, which is awesome.

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: And the third step is finding a connection 

Hannah: and we were like, of course. 

Ryan: Yeah. Like when I was interviewing him and he was saying this and I was just like, wow, I'm stupid. 

Hannah: Yeah. We're idiots. 

Ryan: Yeah, I'm dumb. 

Hannah: It's fine. We're a parrot. We're a pair of idiots. . 

Ryan: Yeah. 

Ryan: I'm like, I'm dumb. I don't know. I can't believe that I ever thought about this to do this myself.

Ryan: Yeah. And 

Ryan: Not to minimize how bright it was that he realized it at all, but we were just like, of course. 

Hannah: Exactly. 

Ryan: That's so smart. 

Ryan: So after you've applied to these jobs, and once again, you can go and the way that you're gonna know if you applied is you're gonna track it somehow. Notepad, pen and paper word doc. However it is that you wanna do it,

Ryan: you can use the one that we have, degreefree.co/podcast. We'll link it. All right? You can use something. So once you know that they're all applied to, now, you're gonna try to connect with people. The best way that you're gonna connect with people is probably through LinkedIn.

Ryan: Yes. 

Ryan: There might be some other ways by using like hunter.io and trying to find emails and stuff like that. That's a little bit out of the depth of this conversation. So we're just gonna say, use LinkedIn. 

Hannah: Yeah. For most job applications, that's gonna be, that's gonna be your standard. That's what LinkedIn is good for.

Ryan: And 

Ryan: if they don't, if they're, if that company and the people that work at that company, Aren't on LinkedIn. Well then now you're gonna have to just do a little bit more footwork. 

Hannah: Yeah. You might have to go. An underrated tip is 

Hannah: to find 'em on Facebook. If they're a little bit older.

Ryan: You can find 'em on Facebook or you can literally,

Hannah: Twitter bio is another good place to find people emails.

Ryan: You can just google the company's name. Sorry. We'll just go off a little tangent here and you can just Google the company's name and go to their website and then go to the Contact us and try to see if you can 

Hannah: reach out. 

Ryan: Right. Reach out. And just say, Hey, 

Hannah: I wanna work for you 

Ryan: right?

Ryan: You can say, you can work, I wanna work for you. Or you could try to find somebody in that department. 

Hannah: To give you advice or be a referral connection.

Ryan: Exactly. 

Hannah: Hey, I want to, I wanna work in social media management for you folks. Is there somebody who I could ask about your company culture, blah, blah, blah.

Ryan: Sure. And if you don't wanna do an email, what you could do because maybe they're not gonna reach out and answer that question. So say you say social media marketing, social media management or whatever, you're trying to do this for this company, but they're not, they don't have a presence on LinkedIn.

Ryan: You google this company and they have a contact us. If they have an email and they have a number I suggest calling.

Hannah: Yeah, nobody calls.

Ryan: The reason why not only does nobody call, but email is one way communication. and if you're asking, Hey, can I get a connection to your marketing manager? That person can think about it and just be like, yeah, no. 

Hannah: Yeah. I will say, that is one of the things , when I mentioned this job, and this wasn't even like a high, like this wasn't high and mighty job. It was just a bartending job that I really, really wanted when I was younger. I applied 17 times, but I also called, I called, I walked my resume in there and I called and I said, Hey, I dropped my resume off or Hey, I emailed my resume in again. Has anyone looked at it? You know, can I, is there anything else I can bring? I can bring in, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Someone hearing your voice on the phone, especially nowadays when people don't talk to a lot of people face to face, especially at a lot of, for remote jobs, almost never are they talking to external people.

Hannah: That's a really good, that's a really good move. 

Ryan: Yeah, and you can literally just Say you want, you don't have to lie or anything too. You can just say, just 

Hannah: Probably don't lie. 

Ryan: I just applied and I wanted to see if I can reach the marketing manager. Do you have their phone number or their email? And most people want to help as long as you're 

Hannah: polite.

Ryan: Polite, right. 

Ryan: Exactly. 

Ryan: As long as you're putting your best foot forward. Most people wanna help and so maybe they'll connect you that way. Alright, so if they don't have, this company and the people that work at this company do not have a LinkedIn presence, you're gonna have to do a little bit more research, a little bit more footwork to get this done.

Ryan: All right, back to LinkedIn. So let's assume that they do have a LinkedIn and they are there. What you're gonna do is you are gonna try to find someone in that company with the exact same role, and if they don't have the exact same role, say they don't have a social media marketer, social media manager there.

Ryan: Then you're gonna look for a similar position. It could be the marketing manager, but it could also be like a, I'm having a brain fart 

Hannah: hiring manager.

Ryan: I could be a hiring manager, but no, but more like a marketing associate.

Hannah: Oh, sure. Anybody, 

Ryan: Right. So you're looking for somebody within the same department or in a similar position.

Ryan: Then you're gonna send them a connection request and you're gonna send them a note when you send them a connection request and the goal here is to make a connection, get them to like you, and then ultimately really to 

Hannah: refer you 

Ryan: get a referral. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: I mean, that's the goal. 

Hannah: And people aren't, people aren't strangers to this anymore too.

Hannah: It may be the first time someone's asked them, but probably not. 

Ryan: Yeah, probably not.

Ryan: Chances are they've been asked before. And so because of that, really quick, what not to do, what not to do when reaching out to these people is to, 

Hannah: Hey, let's connect. 

Ryan: Hey, can I get a referral for this job? 

Hannah: Yeah. Okay. Like not that, not that kind of brute force people.

Hannah: Like a little. Take 'em to dinner first. .

Ryan: Yeah, exactly. 

Hannah: Geez. 

Ryan: Yeah, you don't have to literally take them to dinner.

Hannah: I mean, actually don't do that. That might be a conflict of interest, but I mean, figuratively, just, Hey, how's your day going? How's your day going? I'd like to learn more about this role that you have open.

Hannah: Don't just, Hey, let's connect. I want something from you. Yikes. Don't do that. Why? Because if someone did that to you, you'd be extremely offput. Just put yourself in those people's shoes for two minutes and go, huh? If somebody did that, they're like assigning me work and they're assigning me a task and that's not what you want.

Hannah: What you want is to ask for their advice or input. Not to assign the task that now they have to do. 

Ryan: Yeah, definitely. 

Ryan: And a good book for everybody on this is Dale Carnegie, How To Win Friends and Influence People. If you haven't read it, I definitely suggest that you do. 

Hannah: Everyone Under the Sun needs to read that book.

Ryan: This is exactly what he's talking about here, which is getting people to like you and then people want to do things for people they like. 

Hannah: Yeah. It's a sincere way. It's a sincere, especially if you're new to this, it's a really sincere book about how to be interested in people and learn about them and ultimately make friendships and connections with people and also professional relationships.

Ryan: And we do have templates for this on the website, on the blog article, degree free.co/volumeapply. You can just copy and paste it, and then take whatever but I'll just kind of go over it quickly. The first note that you're gonna send is literally just like, Hey, whatever their name is. Hope you're having a great day.

Ryan: I'm looking to get into my new role at this company, at the company that they work for. Was wondering if I could ask you a few questions about your role? 

Ryan: Okay, Perfect. Done. 

Ryan: And then you would say like, would you mind giving me, 10 minutes on the phone or chat through here and then they're gonna chat with you cuz nobody wants to talk to you.

Ryan: Right. I mean, 

Hannah: nobody does.

Ryan: Right. And you don't wanna talk to them. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: And so there you go. And like I said, I am just paraphrasing literally what Drake Porter told me. so please go back and listen to that episode. 

Ryan: Yeah, we can't, we can't tell you folks to listen to that episode enough. Yeah, you really should.

Ryan: And if they confirm, like I said, the templates are on the website, so go there. But if they confirm now you're gonna message them about the role and you're gonna ask 'em like, how would you define success? And like, how does it differ from different companies? And then so on, and so forth. 

Hannah: Yeah. Put a little thought into the questions too.

Hannah: Like if you want to know what direction the company's headed, if you're, if you want to know like what the sales goals are, if you want to know what the team culture is like, blah, blah, just ask 

Ryan: Exactly.

Hannah: 'cause genuinely be interested. 

Ryan: The questions are going to vary by job role and by industry but the template that we have for you, questions that we've written down are general enough that you could just copy and paste it. But you're probably gonna get better reactions if you ask better questions. 

Hannah: Yeah. Tailor your questions a little bit.

Ryan: Exactly.

Ryan: And the last, the final question, whenever you're done.

Ryan: However many questions you don't wanna ask too many. But the final one is like, oh, how did you get your job there? Did you just coldly or did you get a referral?

Hannah: Most of them are gonna say referral. 

Ryan: Maybe, maybe not,

Hannah: hopefully, 

Ryan: maybe, maybe not. Who knows? Right? And this is what Drake said, which makes sense.

Ryan: You are just trying to get the wheels turning for them and if they like you, they're gonna put the dot, they're gonna connect the dots. 

Hannah: If you lead the horse to the water, the horse will give you a job referral. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Hannah: Right. 

Ryan: Right.

Hannah: That's what we're looking for here. 

Ryan: And if you basically just lead them in that direction.

Ryan: If they like you, they're gonna be like, yeah, you know what? How would I refer you and be like, oh, would you do that? Well, that's not the outcome that I wanted. 

Hannah: How completely unexpected. I had no idea that this would occur.

Ryan: Exactly 

Hannah: and the lovely water you have there. 

Ryan: That's pretty much it. Right.

Ryan: And the basis of that third step, like we said, Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People. It just get them to like you.

Hannah: And do that by being sincere like that. That's the realest thing. You can in fact connect with people when you want something from them, because that's realistically speaking, you want something from this person, you want a referral from them.

Hannah: So be genuinely interested and realize that this person has something that you want. They have knowledge of this company that you wanna get into. So ask their advice. Ask their input, and listen to what they say. 

Ryan: And now you have, so like that third question that you ask them, right?

Ryan: Or that last question that you ask them, like, how did you get that job? Did you coldly or did you get a referral? Well, you now just did both. 

Hannah: Right. 

Hannah: You've effectively done both of those things. 

Ryan: Yeah. You did cold apply and now you have a referral. 

Hannah: Because imagine how good that looks to the hiring manager too, if you've applied and you wrote a cover letter.

Hannah: You know, because people don't do that anymore, and then all of a sudden they get an email on the side from so-and-so that says, Hey, I just sent through a referral for this person and then on top of that, then they get an actual referral. They might get an actual referral code. Sometimes, depending on the company, they'll get a referral code because that person will get paid if they hire you.

Hannah: That's a thing too. You never know if that's the case. So sometimes people have a thousand dollars incentive to refer you, which is another good reason to ask. 

Ryan: And one of the things that's not made clear here, but it is made clear in the episode with Drake is that he does send his resume through a bunch of times if they ask for it.

Ryan: And you know, so that the person

Hannah: can vet him before they refer. 

Ryan: Exactly. Is not putting their stamp of approval on you, 

Hannah: on something they don't know

Ryan: on something that yeah, they haven't seen your body of work. And so definitely have your resume ready to go, ready to shoot over to them so that they can see, okay, this person is right for this role.

Ryan: And based off of the short conversation that I've had with. I like them and it seems like they would fit. So just remember that and that's pretty much it. I mean, you're gonna be doing this a lot. Like we said, brute force your way into a job, into work and volume applying is the way to do it.

Ryan: Like we said, a hundred applications for every job offer. We like to think of it as a hundred applications for every interview and so when Drake was doing this, he said that he was doing it 50 plus times a day. 

Ryan: Yeah, 50 applications a day. 

Hannah: Folks are, you're talking when? We're talking volume applying, that is a lot of job applications.

Hannah: Staggering. 

Ryan: Yep, exactly. But this is the exact formula he used and we've used the exact same thing except much crappier. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: Yeah. 

Ryan: We did two 30.

Hannah: His version is way better. 

Ryan: Way better. 

Hannah: We used the porter process. 

Ryan: Yeah, we did two third of it.

Ryan: And then he came in with the, we did the quantity and he came in 

Hannah: with the quality.

Ryan: With the quality, and now this is one of the most perfect processes for applying. There's also other things you can do to stand out, such as doing video pitches and doing free work and having a professional portfolio 

Hannah: and actually physically sending things into the company to get 

Hannah: their attention.

Ryan: Right, which we talk about as well.

Ryan: But if you're just trying to apply to jobs, apply to jobs, apply to jobs, this is the way to do it. 

Hannah: Yeah, for sure. 

Ryan: This is super effective. 

Hannah: Now if you want more degree free, because why would you not want more of Ryan and I and our stupid jokes? So you are gonna want to run over to degree free.co/newsletter to get our newsletter that comes out once a week, to your inbox. It's gonna have resources, stuff Ryan and I think is cool, and degree free news, like companies that are losing their degree requirements, apprenticeships, and all other kinds of cool stuff. So go on over and grab that. 

Ryan: Yep. Perfect. And if you guys wanted to support the show, the best way that you could do that is by leaving an honest review wherever it is that you get your podcast, Spotify, Apple, wherever.

Ryan: That would be great. Once again, this is a super resource heavy show. There's a lot of things. If you guys want the links to everything that we talked about, degree free.co/podcast. As far as the article, that's degreefree.co/volumeapply. Definitely go back and listen to the interview with Drake Porter.

Ryan: Also, last but not least, this is a very integral and important part of the first pathway of the five degree free pathways.

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: Of getting a job. You're gonna be doing this a lot 

Hannah: all the time. 

Ryan: Yeah, definitely. And, yep, that's pretty much it. If you guys wanna say hi, the best way to reach out to us, [email protected].

Hannah: We read your emails. 

Ryan: Yep, absolutely. And that's pretty much it guys. Until next time. 

Ryan: Aloha.

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