Use This Framework If You’re Thinking About Going (Back) to College (DF#104)

Hannah Maruyama [00:00:00]:

A college degree is a guarantee of 2 things. You are going to spend time, and you are gonna spend money. That is it. It does not guarantee you a job. It does not guarantee you pay. It does not guarantee any of the things that it implies that it will. All it guarantees is that you are gonna spend your time and you are gonna spend your money on a college campus.

Ryan Maruyama [00:00:20]:

Aloha folks, and welcome back to degree free where we teach you how to get hired without a college degree. We are your host Ryan and Hannah Mariama. It is great to be back. Welcome welcome back to the podcast folks. As you know, Ryan and I are stoked to have you with us today. Yes. Today, we are going to be discussing going to college or going back to college. This is something that I've been wanting to talk about for a long time. Because this is what I went through. And I know a lot of people out there listening to this right now are thinking the exact same thing. You might not be young and thinking about initially going to college, but you might already have a degree or you have some community college. Whatever it is, you might be thinking about going back or going to college for the first time if you're young. And I wanted to talk about how to think through that decision and give you some ideas and some numbers or at least a thought process behind thinking about it. And I know a lot of people that are making this decision,

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:21]:

don't think about it in a practical sense. And so I wanted to give a practical approach today. Yeah. Your story about this is going to be very useful to a lot of people because many people

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:32]:

have this experience of going oh, should I go back? Oh, I need to go back and get another degree. Or should I should I go? Should I do that? I should. You know? And it's this inner tug of war back and forth of whether or not they should do that in order to get better work. Right. And I wanna say at the very beginning that it's not my job or it's not your job. To talk anybody out of going to college. Look. If you listen to this episode and you decide that you want to still go to college or now you wanna go to college, That's great. That's awesome. The goal here is to just give you a practical approach to think about it and analyze the situation for yourself your life, your goals, right, and ultimately make this your decision and making it an informed decision to purchase a college degree or to purchase attendance out of college because that is, at the end of the day, that is what you're doing. So this is the decision that a lot of people are going to be faced with in their life, pretty much everybody, going to college or not going to college. And like I said, if you are in that cohort of people like myself who already have a college degree or some college, you're thinking about going back to college because you don't know what to do, this is also you as well. Usually, when you are thinking about this, decision. You are thinking about the upside. You're thinking about all of the things that come after you get that degree conferred to you. After you supposedly go to school for x amount of years and you learn I'm using quotes here. Whatever it is is in your degree program, and then you get hired at a job supposedly get hired at a job or start a business, whatever it is that you think is gonna happen after you get that degree conferred to you. So people always see a better job, higher pay, less stress because of that higher pay, less debt, more freedom. That's usually the cocktail of benefits

Hannah Maruyama [00:03:40]:

that is being sold to you. And what you're thinking about. And that's the reason why you're gonna go through and spend all this money and time and effort to get this degree conferred to you. This is, like, the definition of the grass is greener. You just think that on the other side of this second degree is going to be the future that you thought you would have after the first 1. You just keep pushing it further and further to the future. Oh, if I just do this if I just do this, then I'll get the job that I want. Then I'll be able to get the pay that I then I'll be able to earn what I thought I was gonna get when I bought this first degree. And that is really what pulls people in and keeps them buying from colleges over and over and going back every time they don't get the desired result even though the degree that they bought before didn't get them to the desired result either. Yeah. It's the pull of all the benefits that makes it really enticing

Ryan Maruyama [00:04:28]:

and makes it very difficult to calculate the cost of it all. The fact of the matter is is that college doesn't really guarantee any of that, but college does guarantee the cost of it. Right? Like, that's the only thing that college guarantees is that whatever the price of it is in money and time is that is what you're going to be spending. The upside is undefined. Can't really be stated or said, but what you can guarantee is that you will spend money. Likely, if you do not have money, you'll go into debt. Your stress will likely go up because you are in debt and you won't be as free due to your financial problems and your financial troubles. Yes. A college degree is a guarantee of 2 things. You are going to spend time, and you are gonna spend money. That is it. It does not guarantee you a job. It does not guarantee you pay. It does not guarantee any of the things that it implies that it will. All it guarantees is that you are gonna spend your time and you are gonna spend your money. On a college campus. Yeah. And for people that have never been to college before, it makes sense of why this marketing is so effective is because you've literally never done it. And so you don't know what goes into college, and then you don't know what's on the other side of college. So it makes sense that the marketing is really active there. What is interesting is how the marketing is so effective for people that have already gone to college and do not feel like their degrees have served them. And that's for a myriad of reasons, and maybe it is because you got the degree in the wrong place. And once again, I'm using quotes here. Or you need another degree in that same field of study to get further in your career. Maybe you feel like you are not papering off and you're not, quote, unquote, educated enough to get an advanced career so you need an advanced degree. Although, a lot of times, you already have a degree in this 1 area that you're already not working in. So by getting a master's degree in that same area that you're not working in, but you did study that doesn't really increase your chances in getting into that field. Not really. So what we hear all the time is I have a degree in English, and I want to get into marketing. And so I need to go back to school and get a degree in marketing to make that career transition.

Hannah Maruyama [00:06:49]:

And to get a job. And that's just not true. No. And it's pretty unbelievable that colleges have done a good job convincing people that if you buy from them again, even though it failed the first time that it will be successful the second time. Yep. Exactly. That is the definition of insanity. Colleges are just selling hopes and dreams. They're just selling, oh, if you just do this, if you just pass go, you can collect 200 dollars. If you just do this, then you'll get what you want. On the other side of this, oh, I know you have that 1 degree, but if you just get this 1, then it'll pan out in your favor. Yeah. And so what I wanna do here to help you make this decision or at least to look at it in a different light is to flip it around and start to view the decision

Ryan Maruyama [00:07:30]:

as a purchase decision instead of just looking at all of the benefits. Look at the guaranteed downside or at least the perceived guaranteed downside. And so it takes on average 5 and a half years to graduate from college. From a 4 year degree program, it takes about 5 and a half years to graduate. It takes about 30000 dollars a year to go to college. So if you are in the average, it's about a hundred and 65 grand to go to college for 5 and a half years and that's just the price of college. That is not including the 5 and a half years of your life that you're spending

Hannah Maruyama [00:08:14]:

in college. That's such a long time. It's kinda wild too because people just say, oh, for your degree, except for you and I both know that it's closer to 6 years, And then I think about what you can do with 6 years of your life. If you're not going day in and day out, paying thousands of dollars, to go to unnecessary classes

Ryan Maruyama [00:08:35]:

that you don't need to apply for a job that you can apply to without ever buying a degree. And I wanna be fair to those people that have all of this college mapping planned out and have these ideas of what you already wanna do and the classes that you know that you need to take. So if you know your actual numbers of what you think it's going to take, to graduate and you know for a fact that you are going to take this long, then please sub in your numbers. If you know that it only costs you 5 grand a semester, to go to your state college or whatever your situation is, then put those numbers in and make it fair to your situation to your decision and make your assessment based off of as real numbers as possible, as somebody that went to college, I definitely suggest you pad the timing, especially if you've never done it before, pad the timing that it's gonna take because a life gets in the way and things happen and you never know what's gonna happen. So I definitely suggest padding at least another semester on top of that just for your own sake just in case, just in case things go bad and don't go exactly according to plan, that would be my advice. The thing about the 5 and a half years is that we don't even talk about or we haven't even talked about is that we haven't even discussed if you just went to work. If you just went to work, your finances would go the other way. It would literally go

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:01]:

the other way. Instead of spending money for 5 and a half years, you would be making money. People get really upset when I when I say this. But if you are walking down the street and you were gonna work at a gas station down the street, you are gonna be better financially off than most college graduates in the US when they graduate. You're gonna be better off because the median salary for a college graduate in the US is 47 k and you're gonna go into debt to make 47 k, it's unbelievable. If this is your first time going to college, you have the numbers. 5 and a half years, about a hundred and 65000

Ryan Maruyama [00:10:35]:

dollars. Like I said, put in your own numbers. Even at a hundred thousand dollars, even if you were to take 65000 dollars off of that, or even if you're cut that number in half, that is still a staggering amount of money over 5 and a half years. It's still a lot of money, where a lot of people go wrong in this situation is they don't think of it as their money because most people don't have this type of money. They don't have this money laying around, especially if this is your first time. So I'm assuming that you're 17, 18 years old, making a very, very large purchase decision. You don't have this type of cash lying around unless your family is well off and your family is taking a portion of this debt or a portion of this burden from you and onto themselves. You don't have this. So my thought is okay. Well, what if you did have this money? Because you are actually spending this money. It's just that your future self, your future earnings is paying for this right now. So what if you had this amount of money right now? You have a hundred and 65000 dollars in your hands right now. Would you go and spend that on a college degree? I'm not gonna answer that question for anybody. Maybe you can, but I'm not going to. Because nobody can answer that question for you. You have to ask yourself, if you had all of that money right now, would you spend all of that on a college degree I don't know your situation here. Hannah doesn't know your situation here. We can't tell you what to do. I have no idea. The answer might be yes. You might see that the perceived value is more than a hundred 5000 dollars over 5 and a half years. And okay. More power to you. But for a large percentage of people listening to this, you're gonna be like, no. I would definitely not spend a hundred and 65 grand if I had that in my possession right now? I think a lot of people would not. I think if somebody had a hundred and 65000

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:28]:

dollars in a bank account, and they were 17, 18 years old. I seriously doubt that many of them would go to a college ago. Yep. I'm gonna give you all of this. The key here is to ask yourself,

Ryan Maruyama [00:12:40]:

what else could you do with that money? What else would you do with that money? How else could you use that money to improve your life? And if the answer isn't to pay for a college, degree or pay for attendance out of college, then maybe it's not the correct choice for you. K. So now I do want to say that this is a little bit of a mischaracterization of what's going on here because what's happening when you go to college is that you're not making the purchase decision all at once. You are making it year after year, semester after semester. And if you have the discipline to make that decision and to be disciplined and stick to your evaluations and your assumptions if you need help on how to make difficult decisions. A couple of episodes back, we did an entire episode of a framework that you can use to make decisions, and I'll link it in the show notes here, degree free dot c o slash podcast. If you can be disciplined and be like, okay. Well, I'm only gonna go for a year. I'm gonna pay for 1 year, or I'm only gonna go for a semester, pay for 1 semester. See if I learn anything? Exactly. See if I learn anything. See how I feel. See if I like learning this way. Exactly. Evaluate whether or not it makes sense for you, and you're able to do that. Every single semester, then, hey, more power to you. That's amazing. The problem with this is that you eventually are going to feel some cost fallacy. 2 years in, 3 years in, you're gonna say, wow. I dumped all of this time and all of this money into this degree into learning this thing, but I do not think that it's serving me correctly. But I have 2 more years to go. But I've 3 years on this side, and I have 2 more I might as well just finish up. I only have 2 more years. And that's just the wrong way to analyze it. And not a lot of people are good at doing that type of analysis. This. But if you think that you can, then, hey. More power to you, and that is an amazing way to do it. But for the vast majority of people, this is going to be the way that makes the most sense is to just think about it in a lump sum fashion, hundred and 65000 dollars or a hundred thousand, whatever it costs for you to go to whichever school that you are thinking about going to. Yeah. That's much easier for me. I wouldn't be able to do that every year. And not to tell you how to spend your money, but A hundred grand. That's a lot of money. It's a lot of money. It's a life changing amount of money. Yes. It's a life changing amount of money. And you could do -- so much with that. You could travel the world. You could learn a language. You could save it for retirement. Yeah. You could buy a house. You could just not go into debt. I was like, you could just not spend it, and then you could have a hundred thousand dollars.

Hannah Maruyama [00:15:25]:

Exactly. The biggest thing is that Americans do not frame buying a college degree as a financial decision for a lot of us. It is the largest purchase we will ever make. I will say that again. For most Americans, at this point, purchasing a college degree is the largest financial purchase you will ever make. Because a lot of us, because we purchased college degrees, will not be able to purchase homes. That's how serious this is. It's how much money we're talking about. And people just act like it's this foregone conclusion, and then it's totally acceptable that we allow 17 and 18 year old kids to go into this amount of debt at that age, and we act like it's not a financial decision. It's an educational decision. No. It's not. It's a financial product, and it's a financial decision. And we need to reclaim thinking about it as such to save people from trapping themselves with debt when they're teenagers.

Ryan Maruyama [00:16:20]:

Yep. And the other thing is looking at the amount of time that you're gonna be spending. Right? So 5 and a half years of your life. So we looked and analyzed the money portion of it. But what could you be doing for 5 and a half years of your life? Because a lot of people won't have the hundred and 65000 dollars. So maybe that thought experiment isn't really useful to them. He's like, well, I don't have it anyway. I'm just gonna go into debt, and then hopefully -- I'll make it Exactly. I'm gonna make more money in the long run, and it's gonna and so I've had this conversation enough that I know that that's what's going to happen. She's like, well, I'm just gonna take out student loans. Student loans are very forgiving in that they're never forgiven, but they're very forgiving and that you don't have to pay until you graduate. Right, until you get a job. As long as you're still spending in college, as long as you're still going to school, you don't have to. Right. And that's the thought process behind doing it, and you're like, okay. Well, I can take out all this debt, so it might go in 1 year and out the other when you're analyzing just the financial portion of it. Because you couldn't imagine having a hundred grand sitting in front of you right now anyway, and so it's all funny money anyway. Okay. Well, the time is real. 5 and a half years of your life, a lot of people

Hannah Maruyama [00:17:35]:

also don't work when they are in college. People get so up in arms about that 1 too. They oh, a lot of people work. I'm like, no. A lot of people don't. A lot of people are just going to they're going to class. Yes.

Ryan Maruyama [00:17:46]:

And they are going to class, and that's all they're doing. They're a full time student, and that's all they're doing. So your economics is literally going the other way. So never find just your tuition and

Hannah Maruyama [00:17:58]:

the money that you pay for Roman board and everything like that, but then you also have to pay for your life expenses, your phone, your groceries, things like that. And if you're not working, if there's no income, then it's all on borrowed time, and you're borrowing that from yourself. Something that doesn't get talked about enough too is the lifestyle inflation of college students because they're around other college students, and so they just spend. A lot of people act like college students go, and oh, they're just broke college kids. They're living on ramen. No. That's not what I've seen. What happens is you get used to a standard of living because you're living on future use money. And the money you don't see in your child still. So you don't see the consequence of borrowing and spending in that way, and it ingrains this lifestyle -- and these spending habits that then people have to go and compete with and unlearn and are really hard to cope with when actually get out into the world and realize you're gonna make 35 k, and you still have to pay down your debt. And you can't live like that anymore. The golden goose is gone. You don't have any more student loans. Now you have to go to real life. Now you have to go back to actually living within your means, and you've never lived within your means before. Yep. And now I wanna talk about going back to college. And this was me. I

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:06]:

didn't know what I wanted to do. And I've told this story a lot before, but I was bartending. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. I didn't know any other successful people or any successful people, I didn't know anybody that was trying to get out of the situation that I was in. Or any of the situations that they were in because I was surrounded by people that were in the same situation as me. I was making okay money as a bartender. But it wasn't crazy money. I was living the bartender lifestyle, which included a lot of partying and alcohol. Which ends staying up super late and waking up super late. I played it on a golf, so that was fun. I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I thought, why don't I go back to college get a mechanical engineering degree and see what happens then. I had a vague idea of what I wanted to do, but, really, it was just a justification for me to grasp at more straws. I didn't like being in the position that I was in. And it felt like just staying in that position, staying in the same situation, doing the same thing every single day was in action, and I didn't know how to get out of it. So the only way that I thought and I knew to get out of it was to go to college because that was action. So I craved action. It's not that I was lazy. It's not that I was dumb. It's not that I couldn't analyze the situation. I just didn't know my other options out there, which is why this whole podcast exists We try to educate you so that you know your other options out there so that you can get out of your situation that you're in now. If you are listening to this, like, how I listen to podcasts when I was first trying to get out of my situation on my wall, to work, then listen up. Go back and listen to our previous episodes, and I'll put links to episodes in our show notes, degree free dot c o slash podcast, how to find a job words, the 5 degree free pathway is, those are great places to start. If you want a free course on how to do this stuff, you can go to degree free dot c o slash pathways, and you can go to degree free dot c o slash get hired, and you can sign up for a 7 day get hired challenge. Those are free courses that are available to you right now to help you get out of the situation that you're in. But what happened with me, I didn't have all of those resources. I didn't have a podcast like this to listen to and to know, okay. Well, this is how to go from a bartender to this. This is how to go from a bartender to this. So all I knew was what I knew in the past, which was, okay. I'm gonna go back, and I'm gonna get a mechanical engineering degree because I hear that those guys make a lot of money. I had a general sense of what I wanted to do, but I feel so stupid saying it now because I didn't really wanna do it. I just heard the job, and it sounded really cool. The job was basically working on animatronics and doing something like if you ever been to Disney and you see, like, Buzz Lightyear, like, moving and things like that, like a robot, I thought that that was so cool. And I thought, that -- It is so cool. Yeah. I thought that bringing magic to, like, little kids' days, like and through engineering and through science is such an amazing thing, and it is an amazing thing. Also, just to everyone listening, we're not Disney adults, actually. We're not, like, super big Disney people. He just wanted to work on the robot Well, I didn't there's nothing wrong with being a Disney adult, and I wasn't necessarily talking about Disney. I could have worked at Universal. I could have worked at didn't even have to be at a theme park. It could have just been -- A museum? Yeah. Doing those types of things. And because, normally, those are put into displays and meant for public enjoyment of which I thought would be really cool. So, like, the Smithsonian or something? Yeah. Exactly. Anything like that or, you know, some sort of display or some sort of storytelling through an animated, you know, animatronic robot. It has, like, voice overs and then the arms move and things like that. If anyone does that or knows anyone that does that and would like to tell us how they got into that and how they learned to do that would be very interested. I was really just grasping at straws. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. But I ended up thinking about going and getting my mechanical engineering degree. And so I did all of the research, and I wasn't going to do this in a haphazard way, I looked at the program that I wanted to go to. I saw the amount of credits that any of take, it was 2 years because I already have my 4 year degree. I knew exactly how much it was gonna cost me. It's gonna cost me 60 g's. And is gonna cost me 2 years and 60 g's. And that's assuming that I was able to pass all of my classes, and study full time. That was it. I signed up. I literally signed up. I went and got my books. I, like, went to the college and went to the bookstore, bought all of my books for that semester. And I was like, after a week of the book sitting in my room, and I was don't know what I wanna do. And I don't know if I can pay 30 grand for this year to get this degree right now and then 30 grand next year to complete the degree. And so I was like, woah. I am throwing darts at a dart board here. And it just so happens that the dart in my hand is a 60000 dollar dart. Really expensive for a dart. I didn't have 60000 dollars to spend. And so I was sitting there thinking, what I doing? I mean, it sounds really cool to go and work on these things, but then I thought then I have to get an apprenticeship or I have to get an internship or I have to meet somebody in that field of animatronics. I don't know where to start with that. Wait. I'm starting with the mat. Okay. Well, that's a good that's a good idea. But still have no idea. I don't even know if I wanna do that. I had never met anybody that did those things. I'm not even sure if it's a good job. Maybe it's a job that sucks. I had all of these thoughts going through my mind. And at the end of the day, I was very glad that I returned the books with Drew from all the classes or re or disenrolled, and I was able to get my money back for it all. Long story short, this is the same type of analysis that you should be doing when you're thinking about it. The thing about going back to school is a lot of times you're older. And with age, comes more responsibilities usually. Especially financial ones. Like, you might have a family now. You might have kids. More and more bills, more and more responsibility. Now you have to analyze, does it really make sense for you to take all of your time and attention? Away from those things that need your time and attention to focus on this thing, which is getting your degree for 2 years for an extra 2 years. For an extra 4 years, however it is, however long it is for you to do that. So when you look at this decision and you look at the people that are sitting on the a lot of people make the decision to go because of the situation that I was in myself. You look at your current life situation, whether or not you're 17, 18, years old and you just graduated high school or you're 25, 26, and you have a few years in your jobs or your careers, end quotes, you're stuck in your situation, and you're looking for something else to do. You're looking to take action. You're looking to change your life, and a lot of people turn to college for that action. You look to college for that salvation. You look to college for your future, which makes a lot of sense because that's what we were educated to do in the education system that we have now. Mean, literally, high schools are touted for their placement into college. They're successful high schools if they get you into college. Not if they're making money, if they got you into debt. I don't know the word to say it other than, like, brainwashed or indoctrinated. I don't know the name for it to think that college is the answer. And so when you are stuck in inaction, when you're stuck in your position, in your situation while you think I wanna make I wanna take action. I wanna take action. I need to get out of here. I can just look at college as your lifeline, but it's not. When you do not know what to do, The absolute

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:20]:

last resort is going to college. That should be the last thing that you do. Because it's the most costly thing you will do in time and money and resources and mental energy. The first thing you do is you and you go and you get a part time job doing whatever it is around that field. Like, you wanna be a teacher. Okay. You're gonna go be a teacher's aide and see if that sucks for you or not. Oh, you wanna work in photography? Okay. Go get a camera. Start taking pictures. Go find a photographer to be a photographer assistant for. You might find that, oh, you know what? You don't you don't actually like photographing weddings. Why? Because it sucks because people are really picky, and it's not fun, and it's not enjoyable for you. You test these things out. A college is the last place you go. It is not the first place you go, and we have to fundamentally just flip our thinking about this so that we can stop putting ourselves in debt And then backing ourselves into a corner and going, oh, shoot. I wanna change my life because I'm not happy with where it is right now, and now I have to buy again. Because that's that's really what it is. And it's this just it's just this revolving door of going back to school every time you wanna change your job or change your life. Yeah. And so, for example, for me, the biggest problem is that I didn't know

Ryan Maruyama [00:28:30]:

that I wanted to do that career, like, work in animatronics and be an engineer for those things. I didn't even work in those things. I wasn't sure if that was a career that I would like. I didn't even know it was involved in that career. I just thought, okay. Well, engineers make a lot of money, and that seems like a really cool way to be spending my days as to, like, you know, like, literally bringing addicts to people's lives. Okay. Well, let's do that. What I should have done instead of go to college again, which I didn't do, but instead of go to college because that's the only path that I saw at the time, I should have got a job at Disney or Universal around those things. Try to we get a job as a maintenance tech on those things instead of the person that engineers them and creates them, be somebody that works on them when they break. Work at the places where they design those things because they don't design them at the parks. They they have campuses off of the park, and they design them there. Yeah. I forget what the building is for Disney. It's in it's in Southern California somewhere. It's like a big campus. If somebody knows where that thing is, let me know. I think it's a big glass building, if I'm remembering it correctly. I saw it before, and I knew that that's where it was. I think they're called Imagineers. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. So if you know what I'm talking about, can you please leave a comment on YouTube? If you aren't a match near, we'd like to hear from you. Yeah. That would be fantastic too. Please hit us up. Contact at degree free dot c o or comment on YouTube, and we'll hit you up. But, yes, I should have done all of those things to see if that was a better fit for me and then see if there was a different way for me to get into those careers. Without having to go to college and spend that money. There's nothing wrong with going to college. It's just that it's the riskiest thing that you can do. It's the riskiest because it takes the longest and it costs the most amount of money. So if you're gonna do it, do it when you're sure. After you tested it, after you feel tested this, hey. Maybe I wanna do this. Right. And so if you've listened to this episode and you're like, okay. Well, I've done the analysis, and I do not think that I should go back to college. What do I do now? That is the reason why we created the 5 degree free pathways. We used to get asked this question all the time. We still get asked this question all the time. Well, if not college, then what? And when we got asked this question, we would always say, always say, oh, anything. While that is mostly accurate for the vast majority of people listening to this and who will who will ever listen to this who do not have license to practice careers where you would need to go to college to do those things. Okay. It's accurate for you. What can you do pretty much anything? But that was not very helpful. People's eyes would glaze over, roll into the back of their heads. Okay. Well, that's not helpful. I'm still in the same position that I am now. So that's why Hannah and I spent months and months coming up with a framework that you can use to get out of the situation that you're in now and that is the 5 degree free pathways. We go over the 5 degree free pathways in another episode. I've already mentioned it, and we will put links to that. In the show notes. And then if you wanna take a free course on it, you can go to degree free dot c o forward slash pathways, and you can sign up for that free course there. Definitely suggest that you do that. It's free because we just need to get that information out to people because you should know your options other than paying a hundred and 65 grand over 5 and a half years. To come to school. Yeah. It's crazy. If you wanna get more of this type of information,

Hannah Maruyama [00:31:59]:

which is what you can do instead of go to college, how to get hired, degree free, companies that are down credentialing, all kinds of degree free news. Go over to degree free dot c o forward slash newsletter and sign up to get our free weekly newsletter delivered right to your inbox. Let me know if you guys liked this episode. Go to YouTube

Ryan Maruyama [00:32:16]:

Comment, like, and subscribe there. Subscribe to our podcast. Leave us a review wherever it is that you your podcast. That really helps to get the message out there. I know that's pretty much it for this week. Until next time, guys. Aloha.