Things You Need to Know Before Job Negotiations - Ep. 17

Ryan: Aloha guys, and welcome back to degree free. We are your hosts, Ryan, and Hannah Maruyama. On this podcast, we share fundamentals we've discovered and the mistakes we've made while self-educating, getting work, building businesses and making money. We'll tell you how to make it happen. No degree needed.

Hannah: Welcome back to the podcast folks. We are super excited to have you here as always, please feel free to like and subscribe. So you do not miss one of these episodes because that would be a bummer. If you want to know how to go about getting a job without a college degree, do feel free to check out our website, which is degreefreenetwork.com. Our guide is up for sale on there. You can grab it if you want a resource that you can use to figure out how to do what we're talking about, and also feel free to listen to previous episodes because they are chock-full of this information as well.

Ryan: Yeah. Well, let's get into today's episode. Today where you're going to be talking about the things you need to know before negotiating.

So before you even step into negotiations with a company. There are a bunch of things that you need to figure out first.

Hannah: Yeah. Number one on the list, being, deciding what you want before you go in for the interview. Sometimes that can be difficult, but you can establish the things that are a priority to you before you start interviewing in a job.

And you really should, because otherwise you're going to have to decide what you want to get out of the job while you're in the interview, and interviewing is hard enough as it is.

Ryan: Yeah. So, this is not something that people ask a lot. Actually, this is one of those things that like, people ask, like, how do I negotiate?

That's the question that we get and we will get there. You know what I mean? That's, we'll get there, but you need to know. I mean, honestly, we might not even have to maybe we will, but you might not even have to get there because a lot of people don't do this step first. You have to know.

You have to go through some things by yourself before, and you have to know these things before you even come to the negotiating table before you even you're worried about what to say to that person while you're sitting there with them. Nevermind all that right now. We're going back to basics.

We're going back to identifying the things that you need before you negotiate. That's what we're talking about.

Hannah: It's like homework that you do before you, before you start interviewing and negotiating with a company to accept a position.

Ryan: Everybody wants to know about how to negotiate, but this is the stuff that you need to know before you negotiate.

This is the stuff you need to know before you get there.

Hannah: So you can.

Ryan: Right exactly.

Hannah: So I do get some questions about how to do this. And I think the ones that the, what I get from those people is that there's a few questions that they need to ask themselves first.

Number one being what is important to you in a job? Everyone would think that the answer would be money and it's okay if it's not, if you've watched any of our podcast shows or you've watched our TikTok before you know that it's our belief that work is about money because that's must where you get money from.

And today in America now that's how you make money. That said, you need to decide what's important to you to get out of a job. If that's a learning experience, if that's having that company's name on your resume. If that's making connections at that company, if it's getting experience in a specific industries, so you can get a different job and you have to figure out what is important to you about that job before you go into the negotiating period, because that's going to dictate how you negotiate.

That's really important.

Ryan: Right. And it's identifying what's important to you. Then after that, or while you're doing that, you have to prioritize it, right? There have to be priorities. If pay is the number one thing. Okay, pay is the number one thing, then you're not going to budge on, then you shouldn't budge on pay, right?

If working four day work week is the number one thing on there, then okay, that's a non-negotiable you're not going to negotiate around that, and even if you don't have, I mean, I think the first thing is identifying those non-negotiables, right? And, really asking yourself what those are.

Hannah: And, there's no right or wrong answer for this. This is largely individual. If Ryan was saying, you have to sort through the typical things that a job can offer you. If you want a certain schedule, if you want to work from home, if you want a certain healthcare benefits that they offer, if you want certain stock options or retirement benefits that they offer, you need to know that before you go in for the interview, because you can not think about that on the fly in the 15 minutes that they're actually talking to you in the interview .

Ryan: As with everything else that we say usually it's what helps is writing it down, right?

Just journal it, write it down on a piece of paper or a doc, wherever. I'm just saying that these things are important to me, and here are the priorities of these things. And if you don't have any non-negotiables, good. Then it's super easy. But it does help to at least rank them still. If you're not super concerned about money or, I mean, everybody's concerned about money, but if you're like, well,

I got, I just want a job.

Or it's you don't have to make 80 grand a year. And your budget's I could take 65. I could. It's not that big of a deal for me. Altight, let's do it. But yeah, if you want, if it's I have to work from six in the morning to two o'clock in the afternoon, cause I gotta go pick up the kids or whatever it is.

That's a non-negotiable got, it's got to happen, but it's kind of basic, but these are the types of things that like, you got to do this prep work in order to negotiate effectively before you even get to the negotiating table, because these are your terms. These are your terms in negotiation, right?

Hannah: So I think with this too the reason it's important to nail down which priorities are where is because it is because you can sacrifice them as it were to gain the upper hand in a different part of the negotiation. If your number one priority is a four day workweek, Then you have some flexibility and you can actually, not that I would advise it, but again, it all comes down to priorities.

You can sacrifice some of the pay if that's really, really important to you. You could sacrifice some of the benefits if that's really important to you, and that is going to give you more control over the outcome of this negotiation, and you're going to be happier because you are going to determine the terms.

Ryan: Exactly. Knowing what you're willing to accept and what you're not willing to accept is super important, right? Like exactly as you said, they can for the four hour work week—

Hannah: Tim Ferris. I got it with the white bands.

Ryan: Yeah. So four day work week is a good example because if they're like, well, we can do the four day work week.

But maybe you have to be flexible on the days of the week. So maybe instead of you, you want it to be off on Friday. So you have to work Monday to Thursday, but maybe they're going to give you Monday or maybe they're going to do a split week, and we're gonn have you on a monday, tuesday, thursday, friday, right? So you have Wednesday off and you thought you were gonna get a three-day three-day weekend every weekend, but actually you're going to get two days.

Hannah: That is a really good point. So with the scheduling one, that's a big one because you, especially, if the reason that you need that schedule is so you can work another job or run a business, or watch your kids or work with your partner's schedule, et cetera, et cetera.

You're going to want to make sure that when you explain that this is a non-negotiable, this is the time that you're available. This is the time you can work. If they want you, this is how it looks and you can be flexible on the other things. It's also good because you can use it's—Ryan has mentioned this in another episode, but it's like laying down cards and you have these cards, then you're playing with a full hand and you can sacrifice certain cards to keep the one that's most important to you. And so I think that that matters.

Ryan: Yeah. That was using a different way, but yes. Yeah.

Hannah: Yeah. It probably would have been more accurate if I said something about chess, but I don't play chess.

Ryan: It's like playing cards but you don't keep the card. Anyway. Anyway, so.

Hannah: I'm not a gambling man.

Ryan: So I think with what you are willing to accept, and what you aren't willing to accept, I think the key with, as, with everything else is just being completely honest with yourself, right? Everybody wants to have their cake and eat it too. Everybody.

And hey, and if you find the job where you can have the best of both worlds, you're like, yeah, I want to make X amount of dollars, and I want a four day work week and I want somebody to watch my kids and I want a Butler and it's yeah, yeah. Okay. That sounds good. What else would you like? And then you just name it all and you're like, yeah, that sounds good.

Okay,

Hannah: That's fantastic. That's great.

Ryan: That's awesome.

That's great. Yeah. Assuming that that's not going to happen. You really have to be brutally honest about what it is, which, which hills you're going to die on. And generally speaking, the least, or the less amount of hills that are absolute, non-negotiables probably the easier it is to negotiate.

Hannah: It's strategic thinking. If you have five positions that you have, and you can sacrifice three of them to keep two of them, then do. Because these are the two that are actually matter to you, not the other ones and that's why you have to do your own homework before. And you have to know what those things are.

So you one don't get caught off guard and two, you don't miss your shot to get what you want. Because the thing is too, recruiters and HR people are not against you. They're just trying to get a good deal on you. They're trying to get you for as little as possible. That's their goal because they're acting in the interest of their company, right?

So they're trying to hire you with the least amount of resources possible because that helps them to meet their bottom line. And so just keeping that in mind, because you can work with them and make it feel like you both one, which you both did. If they get you and you get what you want to. The chances that that's going to be a longer lasting job with good results, I think is better.

Ryan: Remember that you can always change. Remember that—

Hannah: Do you mean from job to job or do you mean—

Ryan: No, I mean like within the negotiation, right? So like things happen, you learn things, they learn things and it's dynamic. I mean, it's an absolute, non-negotiable, it's an absolute non-negotiable, but sometimes. Sometimes these, the people in front of you are going to be like, no, I need you here five days a week.

I absolutely need you here five days a week, but you love everything else about it. And it's just these aren't rules that are written in stone.

Hannah: They're more like guidelines than actual rules.

Ryan: They're just rules of thumb. And, generally speaking, it helps if you have the non-negotiables, but if you have five requirements, if you've figured out that you have, there are five things that are important to you and you've listed them one through five.

And on the only one is a non-negotiable quote, unquote non-negotiable, but they meet all the other four, and it's.

Hannah: It's a pretty good fit.

Ryan: Maybe, maybe, maybe not. And it's up to you, it's up to you to decide. That's all I'm saying is all I'm saying is that—

Hannah: Only you can know if it's worth it for you.

Ryan: Exactly. And is it worth it to have to hire a babysitter for that extra? Is the money worth it.

Hannah: In order to have this work and job that interests you, that you like or whatever,

Ryan: Whatever the case is .

Hannah: However it meets your qualifications.

Ryan: And I think the next thing is going to be just like you got to ask, right? In the negotiation.

Hannah: That's huge because I do find a lot of people, especially man, it's always the young college graduates. They just don't, they're just not taught. But they don't know how to ask for what they want. They get frustrated when a job or a company doesn't give them what they want in a job offer. And I'm like, did you ask for it?

And oftentimes they have not, and I'm like, they can't read your mind. It's like a relationship. They can't, they don't, they can't know what's in your, what's in your brain, and then. Put it on a paper and give it to you on a silver platter, especially it costs them money. You have to ask for it. Because they're not just going to up and give it to you.

You have to say, I would like this thing.

Ryan: And a key to that too is just knowing that once you're in the room, they have their non-negotiables too, right? But the only way you're going to find out what their non negotiables are is if you ask.

Hannah: And they'll just say "no".

Ryan: Just because the job description says five days a week, just because the job description says 10 to four, whatever it is, whatever 10 to 6.

Hannah: Yeah, whatever the shift is.

Ryan: Yeah. Just because the job description says that it doesn't mean that you can't ask. Just because the job description says range 60 to 80k doesn't mean that if you get in there and you get to the negotiation stage and you've felt like you've pleaded a good case and presented a good case for you to get paid more, that doesn't mean that you can't ask for more.

You can ask for whatever you want. If you're like it's a non-negotiable for me to make a six figures. Non-negotiable. I need a hundred k and any benefits, but the thing is there's 60 to 80, right? If you felt like you PR, if you felt like you presented a good enough case and you felt like you can present, you can provide value there.

Just ask for it. They might laugh you out of the room.

Hannah: Who cares?

Ryan: Who cares, right? At the end of the day, you're at the same place, right? I mean, you, maybe you "wasted" some time in interviewing. You gotta shoot your shot.

Hannah: I will say you only learn from those experiences though, especially because job hunting, interviewing, and negotiating are as long as you are, honestly, you're going to use it forever.

Even if you're self-employed, it's still, it's still valid. It's still useful. Because you're going to either be negotiating from the other side of the table too, and so knowing this basic stuff is really just going to help you in life because everything, almost everything is negotiation, I don't know who says that it's some, I don't know, there's a bunch of big name, sales people, CEO type people that say that, but it's true.

Like every time that you interact with another person, it's a bid and an agreement. And so knowing that that's how it works and especially understanding that the two different parties come to the table with different wants for different outcomes, and the only way for them to come to an agreement is to have a discussion and ask each other, if these things are acceptable.

And so knowing that you are an equal participant in a negotiation and to understanding what, what power you do have in that dynamic is really helpful.

Ryan: Yeah, definitely. And then, so, the power, the power dynamic and understanding that like, You have something that they want, right?

You have your labor, and as I said, I always say all the time, they have a problem. They obviously have a problem and they are willing to pay money for it.

Hannah: They need your labor to fix it.

Ryan: And you need their money. And as long as you understand that they're trying to get a good deal for your labor.

Hannah: And so are you.

Ryan: And so are you on the other side of it. And as long as you understand that, the more that you understand that, and the more that you can see , the other person's point of view, I think the better you can move around the situation.

Hannah: Yeah, because you feel like you understand how much control you have over it.

Ryan: Yeah, definitely. So this is going to be kind of a quick episode. I think the last thing that I really wanted to talk about was knowing when to walk.

Hannah: That's one is touchy. And, and I think maybe too, I'm not trying to be condescending to anybody who's just starting out. But this is knowing when to walk is kind of a risky maneuver.

If you really need a job and you really need money and you really need a job. You have less leeway to walk away because you need the money. And so it's a little bit different than someone who's going in with a little bit more experience, a little bit of a financial cushion. It's a little bit different.

So deciding when to walk away from a job offer, especially if you need the money is, is risky.

Ryan: Yeah. I think everybody's financial situation is different and only you can know that. And generally speaking, when you're first starting out, if you're first starting out, the general advice is to say yes to everything.

Like just say yes to everything. Also, if you need money, just if they're willing to offer you money and you try to negotiate to a higher salary and you get them up a little bit, or you don't get them up, but you need the money, maybe take the job.

Hannah: Fix your money problem first.

Ryan: And then also it is easier.

It's been proven that it's easier to get to get a job while you're employed.

Hannah: Yep.

Ryan: So get a job. And then continue to looking for another job.

Hannah: Yeah, continue to look for a job at the exact same rate that you're looking for now.

Ryan: It sucks. Cause it's, it's a lot of work to look for a job, but you know, that's kind of where we're at but, if you're not just starting out, or if you have somebody on the side and you don't have to, and money's not the end all be all of your situation, then you have to know, you have to identify the, the yup. And like I said, those are usually going to be, those are always going to be your non-negotiables. It's going to be whether or not you get the right schedule or whether or not it's a work from home.

Hannah: How good their education credit is.

Ryan: Exactly. How, what kind of benefits they have? What is your vacation package, fringe benefits, court benefits, whatever, whatever it is.

Hannah: I think with that too, in order to know, when you're willing to walk, you have to be brutally honest with yourself about what your worth is.

If you have no experience and you don't have any relevant skillset. You've been applying for jobs for months, and this job offers you a position. I don't know your situation, but it sounds like you don't have the market value yet to turn them down. It sounds like you need to take that job.

And I think that that's well on a very individual level. I think that generally speaking, especially if you're in a financially, not in a good place, get yourself out of the corner by earning some money and having current employment on your resume so that when you apply, you're a more attractive candidate on the market and you do have more leverage, but if you have zero leverage, then you need to get some and the best way to do that is by getting a job.

Ryan: And then one of the things that I should've touched on earlier, and then I wanted to but thanks for reminding me, this is kind of happens before you even apply, but it bears saying here is kind of doing research about typical salaries in this range.

Hannah: And this is a controversial one because everybody and their mother is well you have on an inaccurate range online.

Okay. Sure. Maybe, but you have to come up with a range somewhere. So just look at I don't know, five different jobs sites that, and look at the averages for that job. And then just average those together. Or just pick, what looks like in the middle. There's no right or wrong answer to this.

People can get all up in arms about it as much as they want. It's very controversial on TikTok to give out salary ranges for jobs. People that are applying for jobs. Have to start from somewhere.

Ryan: You need some sort of basis.

You can't just go in with no number.

The thing is too what's happening and I see it as a growing trend is that people, companies less and less are posting salary ranges.

Hannah: It's smart on their part, but it's also extremely irritating.

Ryan: It's very smart and it's very irritating, but yeah. So I think that that growing trend of not posting salaries, it makes a lot of sense because then it forces the person to negotiate.

And it forces me as the, as the interviewee.

Hannah: Yes, it puts you it basically sets you back on your heels, the person interviewing.

Ryan: Interviewee. Interviewee.

Hannah: Interviewer doesn't make any sense.

Ryan: So that was the interviewee. It makes me battle. It makes me

Hannah: It's an uphill battle.

Ryan: Prove my worth, and but, but as you said, you got to start with, so you got to start somewhere.

You need to have, so you need to go in there knowing a range. Even if that, even if, like I said, if your range is wrong, it doesn't matter. Even if their job listing does have a range and if your range is higher than that.

Hannah: Ignore it.

Ryan: It's fine.

Hannah: It's a suggestion.

Ryan: And you just go there and then you say that this is what I think I should get paid.

And if they can't afford it, they'll tell you. Or if they don't want to pay you that money, they'll tell you.

Hannah: Or if they do, they just will say, "okay".

Ryan: They'll pay you. Exactly. It goes both ways. But I think that that's something that you also, in the beginning phases of this, you gotta know what you want, but before that you kind of have to have a realistic range.

Hannah: Estimate your market value.

Ryan: Yeah, exactly. You have to have an estimation of what you're going to be doing. And

Hannah: Is it wrong? Maybe. But you still got to have it.

Ryan: And obviously, depending on the different roles that you're applying for, because when you're applying for a job, a lot of times, especially when you're first starting out, or if you're switching industries, you're just applying to anything. Anything and everything, right? So you could be a marketing director at some firm or whatever, or you could be applying for a customer service position, or you could be applying to a sales position, or you could be applying to a manager's position.

And you kinda got to know that maybe in every single role, you're going to get paid a different rate or you're going to, or the range is going to be different maybe. And then also the way that you're going to compensated is going to be different as well. So in the sales role, maybe it's going to be all commission-based or small salary maybe in the manager role, it's going to be bonuses.

Hannah: Heavy salary could be bonuses or maybe just low salary.

Ryan: And then maybe in the customer service role, it's going to be just a salary. Marketing role it's going to be bonus, whatever. But just kind of having a general layout of the land while you're doing it.

Hannah: Especially if you have kind of a varied skillset and this is going to be more for degree free people, because sometimes they have a more wide range of skills than a lot of college graduates do.

For me, I'm a great example. I have pretty hefty marketing jobs but I also have sales experience, but I also have software development experience now. So it's possible that if I were interviewing for a marketing role, but they needed somebody who was if they needed somebody who was in sales and I was willing to entertain that position and they were like, you know what?

I think you're a better position for this sales role. You would have wanted to do your research before, because if they pivot while you're in the interview, now, you're back on your heels again, because they've changed the they've changed, what you're talking about, and that does sometimes happen.

That does sometimes happen, especially if you're reaching out or you're applying for multiple different roles.

Ryan: Yeah, definitely. And then just having these numbers or having your non-negotiables in general, doing this prep is really going to make it a lot easier. When you do get that, I feel like, yeah maybe we'll do maybe a, we have actually have two openings.

We're just going to fuse these together and we're going to make, we're going to make your role here that, and then you're like, oh crap. And then you have to price that. But if you have a good idea of the pricing, of what you're willing to take and what you're willing to not take about as far as salaries or work schedules or whatever it is that else that we talked about at least you're prepared. At least a little bit, but yeah, that was a good one.

I think we covered it all. That was probably one of our quickest episodes.

Hannah: But this is this is simple stuff guys, but it's really important at the same time.

Ryan: Yeah, definitely. This is like we said, we always get the question about how to negotiate. We can get to that.

Hannah: Yeah. But the how of the here's the tricks for it? Like this is more important, I think.

Ryan: I agree. I agree.

Hannah: Because I know what you're negotiating.

Ryan: I agree on. It's good to know how to sell yourself and it's good to know different mental biases or different marketing and sales tactics in order to negotiate harder and into a higher role or a better paying position or whatever.

Hannah: Whatever you're happier with it's a win-win.

Ryan: The way that you do it is obviously super important, obviously.

But before you get there, you got to figure out what it is that you want so that you what you're negotiating for.

Hannah: Yeah you can't, you can't get what you don't even know you want.

Ryan: Exactly. And so that's what this episode's about. Identifying what's important to you, prioritizing it, figuring out what is non-negotiable, right?

Figuring out what you can budge on, what you can't budge on for four day work week, work from home, hybrid pay, fringe benefits, core benefits.

Stock options.

You name it, whatever it is. If you need to pay time off, if you want your fricking if you want, like to bring your dog work Fridays or something like that, you know what I mean?

Okay.

Hannah: Sure thing.

Ryan: Yeah sure. If that's what you want. Exactly. And then know what you're willing to accept, knowing which hills that you're willing to die on.

Hannah: And what things you're willing to sacrifice to get the things that are most important.

Ryan: Exactly. Knowing when to walk away. Huge. Having a salary range before you sit down.

Hannah: You have to, and people, people just get so of an arm as well was not accurate.

It doesn't matter, man. People don't know, they got to figure it. They gotta make a guest. It doesn't matter if you're wrong, by the way, it doesn't matter if you're wrong. It doesn't matter if, if that's really high to them. That's okay. It's okay. You can come down.

Ryan: And then the biggest one is that you got to ask, right?

I mean,

Hannah: They're not going to give it to you on a silver platter. That's not how the world works.

Ryan: And then if they do, then awesome.

Hannah: Fantastic.

Ryan: But before they give you what you want and you have to let them know what you want. And if you say, I want to make this much money.

I want to work from this time to this time on these days. And I want these benefits and they're just like, yeah, we provide all of that, like right on. Sounds good. When do I start? I think that pretty much covers it.

Hannah: Yeah, I think so. If you are wondering how to do the things all before this, which is how to figure out how to find a job, how to figure out what you need to know, how to go about applying, how to fix your resume, all that good stuff that is in our guide, which you can get on our website, which is degreefreenetwork.com.

It's how to get a job without a college degree, and it's going to teach you everything you need to know, be sure to like and subscribe folks, cause you don't want to miss our next step.

Ryan: Yep. Absolutely. And if you guys have any questions, comments, concerns drop us an email, [email protected].

Let us know if you guys have any questions, maybe we'll plan a podcast episode around it. If you guys like this show and he has made it this far, if you guys can consider leaving us a review on Apple podcasts or anywhere you get your podcast, or just giving us a thumbs up on YouTube. That really helps to get the message out.

Yeah, until next time guys, Aloha!