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Ryan: Aloha guys, and welcome back to the degree free. We are your hosts, Ryan, and Hannah Maruyama. On this podcast, we share fundamentals we've discovered and the mistakes we've made while self-educating, getting work, building businesses and making money. We'll tell you how to make it happen. No degree needed.
Hannah: Welcome back to the podcast, everybody, we are extremely happy to have you. If you have not heard about this, we have a newsletter and it comes out once a week and it is awesome. There's a bunch of cool stuff in there. There are things like different jobs that are really friendly to degree free people. Degree free, news like changes to apprenticeship or different companies that are rolling back their degree required policies. You're going to want to see that. And then also we tend to include resources that Ryan and I use that we find really helpful in our degree free journey and for our businesses as well. So there's just a bunch of cool stuff in there and you are going to want to sign up because you don't want to miss it.
And then also if you could like, and subscribe to the podcast, we'd really appreciate that. And if you want to grab the newsletter head on over to degreefreenetwork.com and sign up.
Ryan: Yeah. So let's get into it. Today, we're going to be talking about how to stay motivated while applying the doozy. It's like really difficult.
Hannah: It's it is one of the hardest things as an adult that you can do.
Ryan: Super, super difficult. It's something that we get a lot and it's something that we've experienced a lot also. So we just figured out something good to talk about when you're applying. I think the very first thing that we have to remember is that on average, it takes a hundred applications just to get an interview.
Hannah: This is for, this is the national average people. This is for everybody.
Ryan: Now that sounds like a really large number. The reason why that sounds like a large number is because it is.
Hannah: It's obnoxious people. We're not saying it's right, but that is how it is right now.
Ryan: I think if you get that number in your mind to at least give you that kind of point of reference, it allows you to be a little bit easier on yourself, because what we're talking about here is really the motivation factor is really just the self-talk that you have, and the stories that you tell yourself in your head while you're applying.
And it's difficult, you're out there for days, weeks, months for a lot of people, and you're constantly receiving emails that says you haven't been chosen for this position. You haven't even gotten an interview. We're not talking about dealing with rejection. We're just talking about how to stay motivated when applying and it's one of those things that if you remember a hundred applications for one interview that really helps to just keep it in perspective.
Hannah: Yeah. Cause I see people and it's a lot of it I think our recent college graduates where I see them make videos about they're in the depths of despair and they're crying because they can't get a job, and then I'll ask sometimes, or I'll look in the comments to see how many times they apply, like how many jobs they applied to, and sometimes it's seven I'm like "kid, you are not even on the board". Like you, don't even exist right now. Like you are not playing the game until you put in 200 to 300 job applications, then you can start to worry if something is wrong with your resume, like maybe you need to tweak your resume or whatever, you need to add some additional skills.
But for most people they're throwing a fit before they even get to a hundred. And I'm like, yeah, that's just how many, that's what you gotta do in order to get, in order to get an interview at all. And I think for a lot of people too they don't realize that they're being too picky with the amount of companies that they're applying to.
They're applying to four companies and then they're not getting, they're not hearing anything back or that you're rejection and they're all woe is me now. And it's just the frame of reference. Like it takes a hundred applications to get one interview on average. So don't get discouraged if you are below a hundred, like you you're not even playing yet.
It's a numbers game. It's a numbers game.
Hannah: It really is.
Ryan: And I think you, you did touch on something that is important, especially going forward, is that your resume and your application and the things that are on your resume and the way that it's formatted, that definitely plays a role in it. It definitely does.
And you're going to want to, as best as possible tailor your resume for the job that you're applying for. And this kind of outside of the scope of this podcast, but just really quickly if you're applying to three different types of roles in a company or at different companies, rather then you should have three different resumes for each one of those.
So an example would be like, if you're applying to be a customer service person, or if you're applying to be a sales person, or if you're applying to be a marketing person, you should have three resumes for that, but that's, like I said, that's a little outside of the scope of this, but just yes, definitely the way that you format your resume has an impact.
That being said, generally speaking, if your resume is already good, we're assuming that your resume is good to go, we're assuming that you're tailoring it. We're assuming that you're just now applying. You've just got to apply and you just have to keep hitting that apply button as much as possible.
Ryan: Don't be spammy, but.
Hannah: Apply, a lot of places because you need to get numbers. That's what you gotta do.
Ryan: And if you think that, I think one of the keys here too, and, I've fallen victim to this is that even if it doesn't seem like you're a perfect fit for the role, you should still apply, you might get it.
You might not. Chances are you're not going to get it, right. If it takes a hundred applications, chances are, you're not going to get it. That being said, if you do, then you got it. That's one, but also you might get a call back for a different role that recruiter or that HR manager is okay you're not a perfect fit for this role, but what about this role?
And that happens all the time.
Hannah: Yep. Great.
Ryan: And you just need, how is that HR manager or how is that recruiter supposed to know that you're looking for work without you telling them that you're looking for work in the form of applying to the job.
Hannah: Exactly. Yeah.
Ryan: And one of the big things to keep in mind when applying is that for most people, you only need one yes.
Hannah: Yup. And there's a lot of people who I think are too picky also about the jobs they're applying for and they get down because they're not getting the results that they want. They're not getting yeses from like the, like I said, the 10 companies they applied to, but the thing is you got to keep in perspective that you need work.
If you need a job, you need work and you need a yes. And so you need to be open to getting that yes from anywhere you apply to and you really need to broaden the spectrum of companies you're willing to apply to in order to get that yes.
Ryan: Yeah, definitely. And what more, what I was saying is just that like past every no, is a possibility of a yes.
Like you're going to have to run through the nose in order to get eventually get a yes.
Ryan: And like I say, for most people, you're just looking for one job. And so when they say yes, that's where you're going to stop. Some people need two jobs or whatever, and then you just keep going though.
Having those two things in mind definitely helps to depersonalize it. Because I think a lot of what people get into is oh, there's something wrong with me. Is something wrong with my resume? Is something wrong with the way that I'm approaching this?
Hannah: Probably not, no. Yeah. Oftentimes not probably not.
No, it's probably just, you don't have the numbers.
Ryan: It's just a numbers game. Yep.
That just really helps to think about it in that way. You need over a hundred to get one interview. That's not to get a job. That's to get an interview?
Ryan: And then that interview, okay, you get rejected now,
Hannah: You need another hundred to get a chance.
Ryan: That's crazy.
Hannah: Yeah. And it's a weird job market right now.
We keep saying it, but it's true. It's just wild. There's just, no I, feel like at this point too, there's like equal chance of you getting hired on the first shot as you getting hired on the 200 shot. Like it's so weird. And then there's also the timing too. If you, are applying towards the tail end of the open applications, and there's 200 applicants ahead of you, the likelihood of you getting that job now is really low. So that one almost doesn't even count as a full application because of the timing of your application. And it's easier for people to apply now than it ever has been. So you have to keep that in mind as well, too.
If you are looking at a job that's highly publicized, especially one that's like on LinkedIn or something, you got to look at how many people are applying ahead of it too I think that does matter as well.
Ryan: Yeah, definitely. One of the things that's going to help us, it has helped us in the past and I think help most people is making a schedule, just like everything else that we suggest.
And just remembering that it's a marathon and not a sprint. I know that for a lot of people listening, you could be unemployed and you could be, you're like, frick, I need work. I need work now. If you, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't hit the ground running, you absolutely should.
If you lose your job, suddenly you need to hit the ground running. Yeah, that being said, okay, realistically. How many applications do you think you can put it into the day?
Hannah: The application burnout is real too, cause if you're putting in hundreds a day, while you're probably going to get results from that, you're also going to get burned out, doing that really quick.
You could probably only do that for a week and then you're, not going to be able to mentally you're not gonna be able to deal.
Ryan: So that's exactly what I was thinking. That's exactly what I do and exactly what I've done and exactly what I suggest people do, which is at the very beginning of it, I think that one of the best approaches is taking a front loaded approach, especially if you are unemployed. So what I mean by that is that, when you first realize that you want to get a new job and you're start applying, okay. If you know the numbers, if you know that it's going to be a hundred in order to get an interview then you probably want to get to that a hundred as quick as possible.
And so you're, you can say, all right, I'm going to do about 20 applications for five days, right? 20 applications a day for five days, or I'm going to do 50 applications one day, which that's a lot.
Hannah: That is a lot. If you're doing it on LinkedIn, it's much more achievable.
Ryan: It's easy apply it. I'm thinking not doing easy apply, but yes, if you're doing, if you're just doing easy apply on LinkedIn, then you're just spamming a button that is easy, but I'm just thinking about not doing easy apply. I'm thinking about doing a cover letter and all that, which is, it takes a lot of time. But what I suggest is front-loading the work. So getting to that, not that a hundred as quickly as possible without blowing your brains out without, yeah. Without wanting to smash your head into the computer screen and, then from there though, you go onto a maintenance dose, which is okay, now I have my a hundred out there. Hope I have my hundred lines out there, hopefully I get one bite and then,
Hannah: maybe 20 or 30 on Sunday nights. And you do 20 on Monday nights, if you're really ambitious.
And, or you could just say, I'm going to do 50 a week.
Ryan: I'm going to do 25 a week.
Hannah: And you can do it whenever. So you can do 50 on Sunday nights is the best night to apply. It's been said, so the reason is cause then Monday morning, you're the first thing, in the recruiter's inbox, right?
You're first, you're top of the pile. But you could apply Sunday and Monday, or you could apply Monday through Friday and you just apply during business. Probably avoid applying on Fridays, but you can apply Monday through Friday and,
Ryan: That's more like application optimization of the days to apply.
I think at the beginning, you need the numbers using the numbers. Just do it right. And if, you gotta do it Monday through Friday, then do it. Right. But it could also be nice that say, if you want to do 50 a week, Sunday night you do 25, monday night, you do 25 and then you're done for the whole week.
And that's what I was talking about a maintenance dose, is that I like to parse it out by week. And then once you hit that number, stop.
Ryan: Just stop. Put your applications away close on the computer. Don't look at LinkedIn again, until you get a message about an interview and then start it again the next week, right?
Because that's going to help you to not get burnt out and stay motivated. And you're trying to stay in the fight as long as possible because you need results, right?
Hannah: No, I think that's a really good, that's a really good way to look at it. Yeah. And, much more, yeah, much more sustainable for most.
Ryan: Yeah, just that time boxing it, but rather putting a quota, putting a quota on this is how many applications I want to do per week. And yeah, like I said if you're unemployed, it's probably a little more urgent that you get a new job
Hannah: and you can put down more numbers of most people.
Ryan: Rather than the person that's working. And they're like, okay, I just want to see what else is out there. So if you're already working and you don't really hate your job, but you're just trying to see if you can up your pay, maybe your numbers are smaller, and so maybe it's I'm gonna do 10 a week and I'm gonna do five on Sunday night and I'm gonna do five on Monday night.
Yeah. Or if, that's too much on one night, you'd be like, I'm going to do two a day for five days, Monday through Friday. And just do it, and so with all of that comes tracking.
Hannah: Yeah, you got to keep track.
Ryan: Keeping track, if you do keep accurate records and you keep it in a, I suggest spreadsheet, guys.
Hannah: Just use Excel or Google sheets or whatever.
Ryan: There are plenty of, if you look up like job search tracker, there are plenty of templates, templates out there that you could use. And I think in the future, we're probably going to make one for you guys.
Hannah: It'll keep you on track responses and interviews and yes or no, and when you applied and all that jazz.
Ryan: And using one of these sheets it's going to be huge. It's a little depressing when you start to get into the hundreds.
Hannah: And you're looking at the numbers, you're like, wow, that's a lot of applications.
Ryan: But to try to flip that on its head,
Hannah: It's actually great.
Ryan: I like to think of it as motivating, right? Because you're like, okay. I know that I have a hundred and this is all based off of that number.
Like I know that I have a hundred in there. I've had two interviews so far. I am more than double.
Hannah: Yeah. I'm ahead of the percentage. And you got to think of the application too. Like you're increasing the surface area for you to get a job interview. That's what it is. The more applications you have, the more likely it is you'll get an interview.
Ryan: 'Cause like I said, how are company is supposed to know how are HR and recruiters are supposed to know that you're looking for a job without you telling them that you're looking for a job, the more companies that you tell that you're looking for a job, the more chances are you getting hired.
Yeah. So tracking it is. Super important it allows you to see where you've been and see where you're going. It also, when you, when your application start getting into the hundreds, people are going to start coming out of the woodwork, like your email. I hope this happens to you, but we've seen this happen with a lot of people when you start getting into those numbers.
You're experienced as a person.
Hannah: Yeah. It's once you get pass a certain threshold, I think it's probably once I got past two 50 or 300, I started to get responses. And sometimes you get responses from companies even that originally turned you down, which I've noticed,
Ryan: and you're just starting, you're starting to get people coming back to you.
And then you're like what, company is this? And then also, a lot of times you can deduce the company by the email address and by obviously the email signatures and stuff like that, but you might not remember the job title. You might not remember what the job description was.
Hannah: And then you're gonna look like a fool when you're interviewing for a job that you can't remember what it was called or what they need you to do.
Ryan: And especially if you've applied to XYZ company and you've applied to seven different positions at XYZ company.
Hannah: Yes. Yes. I've had that. Where I got through, I got halfway through an interview and I, I just didn't know and I couldn't find it.
This was a while back and I got halfway through an interview. Before I realized what I was interviewing for. Yeah, there's crazy. And you just have to, if you ever do that, you just have to ask the recruiter a lot of questions so that you can cover it and see if they'll come out and say whatever it's for.
But that is very risky. And I would not recommend doing that. It was very dumb but sometimes you do so many applications and if you're not tracking you, you just can't remember.
Ryan: So also tracking is going to be not only if you look at it from the view that okay, I've got 200 in which means I should be getting interview any day now, if you not only look at it from that perspective, it can also help you practically by being a tracker and keeping track of the things that you can't keep track of, because you've put in 200 fricking applications, right? Yeah. And a little note about that. Like you said, There's a critical mass of applying where people start to contact you.
Ryan: That's not to say that you can stop applying at that point.
Hannah: You need to in fact, double down, keep going because it's working and now you can have more options too. It's working like you can be pickier, you can leverage, you can leverage stuff. You can also if you're fielding three three interviews and you, can get a feel for which company you're most interested in.
And it'll just help you feel like you're more competitive too, because you're going to have two other people after you, which is good.
Ryan: So anecdotally, you would say that number, like just to keep people motivated and to give them a it's probably 300,
Hannah: 300 or so or more. Yeah it is a lot people.
I've definitely, not originally my, I think that when I first transitioned from from tech, from sales into tech my, it was very easy, but it is a wildly different job market from the one that I went into wildly different. And so now yeah, you got to put numbers on the board.
Ryan: And the things that like, I want to talk about because when I hear 300, I'm like really 300?
Hannah: I think that's low.
Ryan: People are just like, How do you even get to that number? It just seems like a, number that's a fake number.
Hannah: You know what is this too though is, you're assuming that I think people are assuming that 300 of them are successfully received and looked at by a recruiter, but they're not. The reason the number is so high is because the hiring system is broken.
Ryan: What I'm asking is more like. How do you get to that number?
Hannah: Yeah. So, yeah, time, I would say that it's probably at this point too. I'm pretty good at it. So I'm good at, I know which roles are going to look at me. I know which resume structure is going to be attractive to them because of which experience I'm like, this experience is relevant to this position.
And so I'll say, I know what resume, cause I've tailored resumes specifically to specific jobs of titles I've previously had. So if I'm applying for this specific title, I send them this resume and I know that the likelihood of success and this in this resume category and in this type of company and at this level of application.
So if there's six other applicants and I put my application in my odds are way higher, of getting response. Whereas if I'm the 127th applicant on a job that I'm not really super relevant for that, one's kind of a wash because it's it's unlikely they'll call me back. So you just have to like, you just have to put up numbers so I can get to the point now where you come up with a few different job titles that you know, that you can frequently search, like on Google and on LinkedIn.
And you know that you have solid resumes for those jobs, and then you make sure that you're putting out, putting up a certain amount of numbers on the board for each one every week. So I can easily do 50 applications in a night on LinkedIn. And then probably another 20 off of LinkedIn at this point, if I'm really trying.
And so I think for a lot of people they just have to, they just have to know that in order to get that amount up, you just have to, like you said, make a schedule, stick to it, know which categories are strong in applications, and then know which resume to submit so that there's relevant application information for the recruiter so they're more likely to call you back.
Ryan: Awesome. I think what I was trying to say was that you need time. That's what I, that's what I was trying to say.
Hannah: Yeah. It took two months to get. Yeah.
Ryan: No, that was super good. That was super. That was super relevant.
Hannah: That was like two months.
Ryan: It was like, I was trying to like fish for something and then,
Hannah: it's like one of your it's like when your history teacher is like, and who was the, and you're like, oh, I know, but you don't know the answer.
Ryan: I'm throwing you a softball, and I was like, expecting it to be hit back to me.
Hannah: I did.
Ryan: Yeah, you did. You hit it out of the park.I wasn't expecting you to hit it out of the park.
Hannah: Thank you. Two months.
Ryan: There you go. Yes, exactly. Which is interesting actually, one of the little side fact.
Hannah: Ooh a side fact and my favorite.
Ryan: For all of unemployed out there now the average unemployment as of November, 2021, the average length is 29 weeks now.
Hannah: Holy geez. That is a lot. And so I didn't even know that.
Ryan: It's a tough, it's tough.
Hannah: Guys, the system is broken. It doesn't mean you can't still work in it and operate in it, but it's bad.
It's just, there's just no way around, and I think acknowledging that probably helps too, because a lot of people are just like, it's me, there's something wrong with me. And it's no, not really. It's just a really wild, it's just, there's a lot of factors at play. They're very difficult. They're very complex. There's problems with the hiring systems people use. There's problems with, honestly, too, right now, a lot of the recruiters are way overworked and, they are just like, not, they're not operating at peak efficiency because they're just getting thrown to the wolves and there's been like record resignations of recruiters because their work environment is so bad.
So there's a lot, that's going into this right now, too, and then there's just the rise of remote work to as now there's different times. There's just all these different things that are happening all at once, and then there's still a ton of people resigning from jobs, but then there's massive surplus of jobs, but in the tech industry, there's also an explosion of new roles and so much so that, like a lot of the roles don't really have defined requirements for their characteristics.
So they're putting in new recruiters who don't know how to assess people to assess roles that there aren't even defined responsibilities for, in addition to the broken, like general like hiring software. So there's just a lot of problems all at once. And so I just think people should know you're going in, it's a, war you're going into. You're going into a battlefield here. You gotta pick up your sword and get ready to fight. Cause it's hard to get a job, but it's hard to apply for jobs. It's not really hard to get a job. But just keep in mind that is against you, but that's not showing that you are not, that you're not a good candidate.
It's just means that you're not being effective at applying and, the way to be effective is just to put up numbers.
Ryan: The reason why I brought up the 29 weeks was that I just wanted people to know that. And so that the more information, the better, and especially if you lose your job suddenly.
Don't be discouraged by the 29 weeks you're in week one. You lose your job now you're in week one, and now you have the opportunity to beat the average, right? You have the opportunity to get a job at next week, and the way that you're going to do that is you're going to apply and you're going to stay motivated while applying.
And yeah, as harnessing takes two months to get up to 300 where people started calling you maybe you're trying to get up to 300 now.
Hannah: Within the next couple of weeks, right?
Ryan: Yeah, exactly.
Hannah: And then you keep doing that rolling application like Ryan was saying, then you just keep your numbers up as the weeks go on.
Ryan: Yeah. But yeah, I just thought that's why I brought it up just to, so people can stay motivated with "okay this is normal. It's week six, and I haven't got an, I haven't got a job yet", and once you start reaching those later weeks of the job hunt, this is when this episode is really going to come into play because it is tough.
It is tough. And now that you've got your system down now that you're tracking and everything like that, and you're doing it Sunday, Monday or Monday through Friday, whatever your system is, whatever you've decided. And you're in week six week, seven week eight of the job hunt. Now you're like, holy moly.
I am tired. I'm sick and tired of applying to these jobs.
Hannah: It's pointless. Nobody reads them. Nobody sees it nothing's happening.
Ryan: And that's when you have to really take care of yourself and you have to have other things going on outside of applying to jobs in order to feel like you have a win on the day.
So if that's going, working out every day, doing yoga, going for walks with your wife, your kids, your dog, whatever. If that's reading a book doing something that
Hannah: you like, that makes you feel good. Yeah.
Ryan: That doesn't,
Hannah: Ideally, preferably not gaming I will say that preferably something that's not also on the computer.
It's you got to get away from the screens from a little bit, for a little bit. Cause it's just too much.
Ryan: Yeah. I was going to say the same thing. Ideally you want to do something that involves people because applying to jobs is very lonely because only you can do it. You can have other people do it actually could have other people, but most people, 99% of people are going to do it themselves.
Ryan: And because you're doing it yourself and it's just you and the computer screen and the mouse and the keyboard for hours every day or for however long, and you're now in the eighth, sixth week of doing it, you're going to want to have something to look forward to ideally with other people whether or not that's dinner or whatever working out really helps too.
Hannah: It does. Yeah. Physical movement.
Ryan: It's very easy to be depressed during these times. It's very easy to start feeling down because you might not even be hearing your objection at this point. You're just, you're literally hearing nothing because at least in interviews, most interviews you, get rejected.
Yeah. You'll get an answer. But when you're applying a lot of times you don't get an answer at all and it's just you throw it out in the ether and you don't receive any feedback and that's tough, and that's tough.
Hannah: And discouraging.
Ryan: Yeah. That's going to boss you down.
Hannah: And it will, and you could be a really mentally strong person, but it is going to, it is going to wear you.
It's going to grind you down. It is. For sure. So you just have to keep, you just have to keep your head up and keep keeping the numbers in mind really helps because then you're like, okay, it's not, it's not me, it's this. And it's just numbers. And I just gotta keep going.
Ryan: And then after you're taking care of your body and your soul and your spirit by talking to people or working out, doing something that you enjoy. Picking up a hobby, I think the next thing to do is you have to celebrate, especially celebrating small wins because when you're in the second month of applying and it's like, what the heck?
This is crazy. When you do get an interview. Instead of thinking about it as my eighth interview here, and like I haven't seen, nobody said yes yet instead think of it differently, celebrate that you got the interview, that's awesome.
Hannah: High five your roommate or spouse, or your mom and dad or whatever.
Ryan: Yeah. Do this do a special lunch for yourself.
Hannah: It could be as small as, not that it's there's downsides to using food as a reward, but sometimes though, It's like a small, inexpensive way to motivate yourself. So whatever I get, why people do it and I get why I do it's, it could be something is I'm going to go get, I'm going to go get a McDonald's iced coffee for a dollar, because instead of making coffee at home today, because I got in an interview, like that's still a small form of celebration. That's fine. If you, if that makes you feel like you got a little reward for doing something, then do it.
Definitely. I think
Hannah: I'm renting a movie or something that you want to watch, if you don't normally rent movies like not having to rent like a Marvel movie to watch because I got an interview. Not even, not even you got the interview and got the job, but you just got an interview, which is breakthrough, but yeah.
Ryan: Celebrating the small wins.
I think it's necessary in the, especially in the later.
Hannah: In the slog.
Ryan: Because in the first week or two. It's going to be all smiles. It's going to be okay. You're like I I can do it, I can do it.
Hannah: Week four is you're just like, there's, I'm going to be doing this forever. There's no end.
I'm in the pit of despair. That's how it feels.
Hannah: Alone by yourself. Yeah. I think that's it for today. But yeah, definitely just don't get discouraged. Keep your head up make sure you're tracking your applications and make sure you're putting the right amount of numbers on the board so you can actually get results because that's what it really comes down to in this job market.
But yeah, please go to degreefreenetwork.com and sign up for our newsletter because we put a lot of valuable stuff. Even, stuff like this, like ways where you celebrate your wins. We talk about different job application opportunities, news, degree, free news, where we talk about companies that are prioritizing hiring degree free, just cool stuff that you don't want to miss, and then make sure to like, and subscribe to the podcast that really helps us.
And it helps people who are looking for it. And even though they don't know what.
Ryan: Yeah, definitely. And if you guys have any questions or just want to get in touch [email protected], drop us a line. Follow us on social media. She at @hannahmaruyama, I'm at@ryankmaruyama and a podcasts at @degreefreepod.
I think that's it guys. Just remember it's a numbers game. It's a numbers game when you're applying. In your fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth.
Hannah: 29th week.
Ryan: Whatever week you just got to keep your head up. Remember that it only takes one person to say yes to you. It takes one person. But yeah, keep it up guys.
I know you can do it. Until next time guys, aloha.
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