January 4, 2023

How to Find a Job Backwards - Ep. 78

How to Find a Job Backwards And Get The Job You Want

Identify The Skills & Credentials You Need Using This Method

Finding a job is a topic that is rarely discussed, yet it's something all of us will face at some point in our lives.

Unfortunately, most of us never received any formal instruction on the subject during our school years. This is why you should learn how to find a job backwards!

Hannah went from $28k working in a call center to $185k as a product owner using this technique. This is how she figured out what skills to teach herself and what jobs to apply for!

In this episode, we talk about:

- How to find a job backward and get the job you want, no matter your experience or skills
- How to find the exact skills and credentials you need to get hired
- How to find the 'minimum effective dose' to get the maximum return on your effort in job hunting

Ryan and Hannah also talked about why you shouldn't self-eliminate and why you don't have to match all the 'requirements' on the job listing.

Enjoy the episode!

Check out our workbook to learn how to Teach Yourself. Get Work. Make Money. No Degree Needed!

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KEEP SCROLLING FOR LINKS AND SHOW NOTES...

Want to learn how to work around one of the biggest job lies: "you'll hear from us either way"? Check out the previous episode!

Links and Notes from the Episode

Episode Transcript
Please enjoy this transcript or our episode!

Please note the transcript may have a few errors. We're human. It can be hard to catch all the errors from a full length conversation. Enjoy!

[00:00:22] Ryan: Aloha folks and welcome back to Degree Free. We are your hosts, Ryan and Hannah Maruyama.

[00:00:27] Ryan: On this podcast, we share fundamentals we've discovered and the mistakes we've made while self-educating getting work, building businesses and making money. We'll tell you how to make it happen. No degree needed. 

[00:00:36] Hannah: Welcome back. Welcome back, everybody. As you may know, or as you may not know, we have a newsletter that goes out once a week, that you definitely want to get.

[00:00:46] Hannah: It has degree free jobs, resources, courses, we've found stuff we think is cool. And then degree free news, like companies that are rolling back degree requirements and other interesting stuff. You absolutely wanna get this newsletter. So run, do not walk over to degree free.co/newsletter to get that and sign up.

[00:01:05] Ryan: All right and let's get into today's episode. Today, we are gonna be doing our third episode in our little mini series. Biggest job lies. This is, number three. You can go back and listen to, number one and number two, we'll link to everything in our show notes. Degree feed.co/podcast. And you can find them all there.

[00:01:28] Ryan: Biggest job lies. Number three, you'll hear from us either way. 

[00:01:32] Hannah: Oh, this one's rough. 

[00:01:35] Ryan: Yeah. You've probably heard this. A million times in interviews or in the job application process, quote, unquote, you'll hear from us either way regarding whether or not you've gotten the job. They're most likely lying to you.

[00:01:47] Hannah: Yeah. They're not gonna follow up with you if you didn't get it. Probably. 

[00:01:51] Ryan: The beginning of this episode's really just gonna be a rant and we are gonna talk about how we can deal with it and the different things that we can do in order to hear back from them.

[00:02:03] Hannah: First we're just gonna talk about how crappy it is.

[00:02:06] Ryan: Yeah. And this is like, just so dumb. I hate this. 

[00:02:11] Hannah: Yeah. 

[00:02:12] Ryan: Because all you have to do in order to not be a liar is one. Just do what you're gonna say or just 

[00:02:23] Hannah: follow through, 

[00:02:24] Ryan: follow through. Is that right? Did I say that right? 

[00:02:26] Hannah: Yeah. 

[00:02:26] Ryan: Do what you said?

[00:02:27] Hannah: Yeah. Do what you said.

[00:02:27] Ryan: That's more. Yeah.

[00:02:29] Ryan: Do what you said, which is yes.

[00:02:31] Ryan: Let me know either way or two. Just don't say it. 

[00:02:35] Hannah: Don't say it if you're not gonna do it.

[00:02:36] Ryan: Exactly. It's that simple. 

[00:02:40] Hannah: It's rough. It's rough. See the end of this. 

[00:02:43] Ryan: I don't think. That the recruiting person or the hiring manager or that human resources person, they're not doing it maliciously. 

[00:02:53] Hannah: Nah, it's just overcome by events.

[00:02:55] Hannah: It's low on the totem pole of tasks that you need to. 

[00:02:57] Ryan: Exactly. And I mean, you didn't get the job. So not to say that you don't matter, but to them in their world. 

[00:03:04] Hannah: They no longer need to talk to you. 

[00:03:06] Ryan: Exactly. 

[00:03:07] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:03:08] Ryan: Like. They need to worry about the candidates that they did hire. 

[00:03:12] Hannah: Or they're filling a new role 

[00:03:13] Ryan: and onboarding for that person or exactly what you said.

[00:03:17] Ryan: Yeah. Filling a new role. So on and so forth. And so I don't think it happens, like I said, maliciously, but it does happen. And I think all they have to do is just send out a two line boiler plate, email that just says, and you could attach all the candidates. I mean, maybe you don't wanna do that for privacy reasons.

[00:03:41] Hannah: So BCC is for folks. 

[00:03:43] Ryan: Right. But yeah. Exactly. But you could just send out here's a two line email that says, thanks. Better luck next time. 

[00:03:53] Hannah: Yeah. 

[00:03:55] Hannah: Like, we'll file you away for later or something. 

[00:03:58] Ryan: I also don't like this because at this point in the job search, you've probably been looking for a while. If it takes a hundred applications to get an interview, but you're only gonna hear these words.

[00:04:09] Ryan: Once you've gotten an interview basically, or at least done some other task, other. just applying to jobs. Like you've done like a test or something and they've evaluated it. And now you want to hear back either way. Like an aptitude test or something, a skills test, and you're highly leveraged to the situation.

[00:04:32] Ryan: Or at least you've been through a lot already, personally that it's like, it's a bummer. 

[00:04:37] Hannah: It's super demoralizing because the silence is absolutely worse than hearing a rejection. Cause it's just, you just don't know and you're still waiting. 

[00:04:47] Ryan: Right. 

[00:04:47] Hannah: And it's just more of the waiting.

[00:04:49] Ryan: It is safe to say, though, that if you don't ever hear back from this company, , you didn't get the job. 

[00:04:55] Hannah: That is true but like when is that, , is the question and it just leaves this big question mark, this big unknown. And now you're just like, I don't know. It's been two weeks, but maybe, and you're still like holding out hope too.

[00:05:07] Hannah: The fragile bubble of hope. And you're just, and you're just so tired from the job hunt and then just the hearing nothing is just really rough. 

[00:05:15] Ryan: That's not to say that these companies need to care about your feelings.

[00:05:19] Hannah: No,

[00:05:19] Ryan: and like I said, this part's just a rant. And 

[00:05:22] Hannah: So they could, if they wanted to be better, if they wanted to be better at their process.

[00:05:26] Ryan: Right. Exactly. But they don't have to. And it just doesn't matter. I mean, 

[00:05:30] Hannah: I wonder what the rehire rate from people that you put, that you say, we'll file you away for later. I wonder what the reach out rate is to those people again, 

[00:05:37] Ryan: and that's gonna be another episode don't worry. 

[00:05:39] Ryan: That is coming up on the docket people. That is another one. And if you guys haven't, if you have been listening to these biggest job lies, number one, number two, and then now number three. These are mostly my ideas. Like these are, if you can tell by me,

[00:05:56] Hannah: this is Ryan series 

[00:05:57] Ryan: the most. Yeah. Like I'm just renting because these things bother me.

[00:06:01] Hannah: I'm just here for support. 

[00:06:03] Ryan: Yeah. I hope that you find some value in it. And I promise we're gonna get to that at the, towards the end of this. But at first, like this just sucks. 

[00:06:13] Hannah: Yeah, it does. 

[00:06:14] Hannah: There's just no other way to explain it. It's just the worst.

[00:06:17] Ryan: Yeah. It just really, you're going through it and you're applying.

[00:06:22] Ryan: You might need the money. You might just want a better job or you just might want a different job. And you finally got to that interview. And you felt like you did well and you shake that person's hand and she tells you, he tells you, you'll be hearing from us either way. And then you're like, okay, like, awesome.

[00:06:44] Ryan: And then a month goes by two months, go by. And like I said, at that point, you've gotta get over it, but it exactly what you said that hope. Is a little, 

[00:06:53] Hannah: like a raisin in the sun. 

[00:06:55] Ryan: It's just, yeah. It's like sad, you know, you're hold, you're still holding out hope. Cause you're like, well, I didn't hear from them yet.

[00:07:00] Ryan: Yeah. And it's like, but more than likely it's filled, 

[00:07:02] Hannah: Especially if you really wanted the job too, 

[00:07:04] Ryan: or maybe not filled, but you didn't get that role. Yeah. I don't know, but I don't know. I don't know if it's filled or not. 

[00:07:09] Hannah: Right. But especially if you really wanted that job and you're still, but you're still doing the looking, you're still going through the motions of the other things.

[00:07:15] Hannah: It does really suck cuz you're kind of waiting on them cuz you want this specific role and so it's yeah. It's very discouraging. 

[00:07:22] Ryan: Yeah. And so I did want to say, I did wanna give a shout out to those hiring managers and to those. Recruiters that do a good job at this because it's really not everybody.

[00:07:36] Ryan: It's not every company. There are a lot of companies that do tell you if, and when you've been eliminated in the process, I feel like it's getting better in a lot of ways, because in the HR department, this is at bigger companies. Usually they have like HR automation processes, very similar, like marketing automation.

[00:07:56] Ryan: So You can just tick the job has been filled or you can tick the box. You have not been selected for this job. And then it'll just automate emails to all the applicants that have gotten to a certain point. Right. It'll just send out the boiler plate stuff, but even. Without that automation, there are a lot of hiring managers that do this task manually and that's amazing.

[00:08:21] Hannah: Yeah. Cause that's a lot of care to take for people that you're not gonna be working with. 

[00:08:25] Ryan: Yeah. It just leaves a good taste in your mouth. That just the fact that they did what they said they were gonna do. 

[00:08:31] Hannah: Yeah. I've had a couple, I've had very few companies. Actually follow up with me, but the ones that do after they turn me down, I always remember.

[00:08:42] Hannah: And I'm like, oh, that was, you know, that was a standup thing to do was to actually inform the person that they did or did not make it. 

[00:08:49] Hannah: Yeah. It's like, it's like a good, it's like a, it's just solid. 

[00:08:53] Ryan: Yeah. I think the next thing is just kind of going over quickly. Like why did they even say this?

[00:08:59] Ryan: Like, why is it? Why are these words that come out of their mouths?

[00:09:04] Hannah: I think they intend to. 

[00:09:05] Ryan: I think you're absolutely right. 

[00:09:07] Hannah: Yeah. They think they have every good intention to. 

[00:09:09] Ryan: I think they absolutely have the intention to, or at least most people do 

[00:09:14] Hannah: in their minds saying it too is almost doing it 

[00:09:17] Ryan: and they intend to, but then they just get busy, especially if it's not like an HR person, that's responsible for the hiring roles, but it's actually somebody that's in the business.

[00:09:29] Ryan: Managing the business and they're just looking for a junior person or whatever to come in. Like they're busy doing other things. 

[00:09:36] Hannah: They have a lot going on.

[00:09:37] Ryan: Exactly. 

[00:09:37] Hannah: Yeah. 

[00:09:38] Ryan: And, alerting the candidates that didn't get the role is just not high on their priority list.

[00:09:45] Hannah: It just falls to the wayside because it's not something it's not an essential task.

[00:09:49] Hannah: And I think another thing is that largely a lot of people I think, expect us to be expecting to hear it. I dunno if that makes sense. How do I say that better? But if that, does that make sense? Like they're saying they say it, oh, you'll hear from us either way because they're expecting us to hear it come out of their mouths.

[00:10:09] Hannah: Mm. I think so. I think so. Yeah. I think I understand what you mean. 

[00:10:12] Ryan: And in order. For them to fulfill that unspoken expectation. They just say it in a closure type of way, instead of saying like, thank you so much for coming in. That was a great interview. Thank you so much for coming in. The receptionist will validate your parking on the way out.

[00:10:29] Ryan: Oh, did you park in the building? Oh, perfect. They'll validate on the way out. 

[00:10:33] Hannah: Oh, you think it's just part of the ritual knee-jerk reaction of a goodbye after an interview. 

[00:10:37] Ryan: Shake your hand, thank you, you'll hear from us either way. It's just like, I'm expecting you to say it and therefore you say it.

[00:10:45] Hannah: Ooh, 

[00:10:46] Hannah: that is interesting. I think you might be right. 

[00:10:49] Ryan: Yeah. 

[00:10:49] Hannah: It's just part of the, you, this is what you say at the end of an interview, whether or not you're actually gonna follow up. 

[00:10:54] Ryan: Exactly. 

[00:10:55] Hannah: Hmm. I think you're right. 

[00:10:57] Hannah: I think you're right. 

[00:10:58] Ryan: And I get it. Like I said, just going back to the rant real fast.

[00:11:00] Ryan: Like I get why they say that. And I also get why they wouldn't follow through. It's just like asking people, you know, when you ask people like, oh, how you doing? And then they don't answer. And they say, well, how you doing. 

[00:11:13] Hannah: Oh, yeah, yeah. yeah.

[00:11:14] Ryan: It's just like a , 

[00:11:15] Hannah: it's just a ritual. 

[00:11:16] Ryan: Exactly. 

[00:11:17] Hannah: That we all do.

[00:11:18] Ryan: Exactly. 

[00:11:18] Hannah: We've all. Wordlessly agreed that this is what you say in that situation.

[00:11:22] Ryan: Exactly. 

[00:11:23] Hannah: Interesting. 

[00:11:25] Ryan: So now that we've kind of covered why they say it and what a bummer it is to hear it 

[00:11:31] Hannah: and then not hear it 

[00:11:32] Ryan: and then not hear it. How do we deal with it?

[00:11:36] Hannah: What can we do about it? 

[00:11:37] Ryan: Exactly.

[00:11:39] Ryan: And there are a few different ways that we can deal with it. And the first one is gonna be follow up and it seems simple and it's kind of like a no shit Sherlock type of

[00:11:51] Hannah: yeah. It's like, duh. 

[00:11:52] Ryan: Yeah, exactly. We talk about it all the time, but following up is huge and all you really have to do is just have a few template emails ready to go.

[00:12:02] Ryan: And. It can just be like one for the next day after the interview, formal follow up a week after the interview, maybe another one for a week after that. And then if you don't hear anything a few weeks after that, it could just be like, well, keep me in mind for any other open positions. And at least that way you're being, there's a couple of things there.

[00:12:22] Ryan: You've now given them a chance to respond to you, at least you've given them, you. Giving them a chance to respond to you and to, for them to tell you that you haven't received the role or that you have, or that they need more information or whatever. So you've made their life a lot easier. Put yourself back in front of them because I mean, they might have a candidate list.

[00:12:51] Ryan: They might have interviewed 20 people for the role. And they've only have one opening. That means they have 19 other people to email. And then they're on top of it. They're doing all the regular work duties. They're busy. They might have forgot. 

[00:13:05] Hannah: Yeah. 

[00:13:05] Hannah: That's quite a bit to have to do. 

[00:13:07] Ryan: And so this is just a quick touchpoint that you can put yourself in front of them and just remind them. Hey, I applied, I'm still interested in the role.

[00:13:18] Ryan: Thank you for your time. Do you need anything else from me? I'm still interested in the role. Okay. Nevermind like a month later. Thanks for your time. Keep me in mind for other roles.

[00:13:30] Hannah: I think too, of this list, a well placed. Thank you. People can reign on the thank you notes all day long, but the fact is a lot of people don't do them because of that.

[00:13:38] Hannah: because of that attitude and it's, it should not be glossed over the fact that if you do something that other people don't, you look different than people who do not do that thing, it, all it does is serve to make you stand out. Right? So that's something to, don't not send to. Thank you. Note, because you heard someone somewhere say, oh, well, that doesn't matter.

[00:13:59] Hannah: Those don't matter anymore. Blah, blah. I'm not saying that that's gonna get you the job. It is something that you can do that maybe everybody else is not doing. And why would you not wanna set yourself apart from the other candidates? That's my logic on that. 

[00:14:12] Ryan: Yeah. Well, and I feel like with, thank you notes specifically kind of going, continuing on your tangent.

[00:14:19] Ryan: The thank you notes are actually almost expected nowadays. And it's so simple to send one because, and I guess this is something, maybe this is a whole nother episode of like how to execute, thank you notes well but when I hear thank you notes. I always think of a handwritten thank you note. And that's not really, 

[00:14:45] Hannah: no, it's an email people.

[00:14:47] Ryan: It's an email. Exactly.

[00:14:48] Hannah: Don't overcomplicate it. 

[00:14:49] Ryan: Exactly. 

[00:14:50] Ryan: But in my head when I hear a thank you note. 

[00:14:53] Ryan: I think- 

[00:14:54] Hannah: to it's a handwritten, it's a paper. Good.

[00:14:56] Ryan: Exactly.

[00:14:56] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:14:57] Ryan: And so maybe more accurately least for like dumb people like me, like calling it a thank you email. 

[00:15:02] Hannah: Yeah. 

[00:15:02] Ryan: Because that makes more sense to me in the verbiage. 

[00:15:05] Hannah: That's very clear. 

[00:15:06] Ryan: Yeah. Right. Whereas like, man, I don't know you, if you ever like. You have, like, I don't know if people do this anymore, but if you ever get like birthday money from grandma, she sends you like five bucks in an envelope and then you are expected to send you a thank you note, but that's like handwritten.

[00:15:23] Ryan: Yeah. and I'm just like, God, I'm not gonna freaking do that. Like, I mean, like, I will, but I hate it. Right. Or like when you are having a baby's first birthday or whatever they do, what is that like gender reveals or anything where that you have a wedding reception, anything where you have like that guest list and then they put down their address and like, they're expecting a thank you note back.

[00:15:47] Ryan: So then you like write, have to hand write like 200 of these thank you notes. However big your event is.

[00:15:52] Hannah: He just felt like chores. 

[00:15:53] Ryan: Exactly.

[00:15:55] Hannah: Ryan has this phobia of chores that are assigned to him by other people, by them doing things. 

[00:15:59] Ryan: No, but, for me 

[00:16:00] Hannah: I write all the thank you notes in our house. 

[00:16:02] Ryan: The thank you note is like, if you, if we think about it as a thank you email instead, it's a lot,

[00:16:08] Hannah: it removes the barriers.

[00:16:09] Ryan: Yeah. It's a lot like, oh, okay. It's a thank you email. Yeah. It's not a thank you note. 

[00:16:13] Hannah: It's not an actual note, even though I will say I've sent my fair share of actual physical notes because no one else did this. 

[00:16:19] Ryan: Absolutely.

[00:16:20] Hannah: I know nobody else did. 

[00:16:21] Ryan: And that's definitely something you can do. 

[00:16:23] Hannah: And just leave a trail of people behind you that have gotten a handwritten. Thank you. Note from you. It's like not a bad thing. 

[00:16:28] Ryan: I agree with you,

[00:16:29] Hannah: but it is hard, like, especially nowadays to like, imagine you're interviewing with a recruiter on LinkedIn and then somehow this recruiter from LinkedIn ends up , with a freaking paper thank you note from you. And they're like, how did they get my address? And it's also really, it's also really labor intensive to find sometimes the correct address because people are remote now. It's just a whole thing. Right? So the only sure way to get it to the person now for the most part is gonna be to send an email and not to send an actual paper note. 

[00:16:58] Ryan: That's just a little aside. Yeah. 

[00:17:01] Ryan: For about the thank you notes, 

[00:17:03] Hannah: I'm just really passionate about thank you notes. 

[00:17:05] Ryan: Yeah. And it's a quick, these are all quick. Thank you, emails and a part of the whole interview process. You should be getting their emails anyway. So this should be pretty basic stuff.

[00:17:18] Hannah: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:18] Ryan: The next thing that we can do to kind of overcome the kind of bummer of the you'll hear from us anyway. And you don't ever hear about from them is to diversify. I mean, In two ways, diversifying in two different places rather. And so it'd be diversification amongst job applications and your job hunting efforts.

[00:17:43] Ryan: So let's talk about that first, as we know, if you've listened to this podcast for a while, you. It takes a hundred applications to get an interview. So you just have to keep at it. I mean, you just have to keep applying and keep applying and keep applying eventually with all of those applications in you're gonna get multiple interviews.

[00:18:01] Ryan: And hopefully that one interview that you did where you didn't hear back from that person, doesn't really derail you that much, it doesn't affect your mental wellbeing or whatever. Cause that's really all this is right. I mean, that's really all this. 

[00:18:16] Hannah: Yeah. You're trying to stay sane. 

[00:18:17] Ryan: Yeah. That's really all this affects is if.

[00:18:20] Ryan: it just affects your pride basically. And your sanity.

[00:18:24] Hannah: Yeah. 

[00:18:25] Hannah: And your momentum too. 

[00:18:26] Ryan: Right. But if you're, if you had a interview two weeks ago that you didn't hear back from, but then you had a interview the week after that interview and then another interview this week, it's not gonna bother you quite as much because you're diversified.

[00:18:40] Ryan: You've been applying to these jobs and that one interview that is been crickets on is just not as high of a leveraged experience, if 

[00:18:54] Ryan: that makes sense. 

[00:18:54] Hannah: Yeah. Cuz it's not just one of one, it's one of three. 

[00:18:57] Ryan: Exactly. 

[00:18:57] Hannah: So it's not, it's only 33% of how you feel about yourself for interviewing. It's not a hundred percent of how you feel about yourself for interviewing.

[00:19:04] Ryan: And so the next thing that I meant by diversifying is diversifying your efforts in different areas of your life. So not just applying to jobs, but doing other things. In other buckets. 

[00:19:18] Hannah: And this is something I think we've, we have touched on and definitely will again, but job searching, job hunting is lonely and exhausting and discouraging because you're gonna get way more nos and you're gonna get yeses.

[00:19:32] Hannah: You're gonna get way more, negative outcomes and you're gonna get positive outcomes. And so because of that, you need to be working on things. And I don't mean like actively work like laboring, but you need to be working on things or have other things in your life that are not tied to that. So that when you get a bad outcome with a job interview, it doesn't completely demolish you as a person, because it's really easy to feel that way.

[00:19:58] Hannah: If that's all you're doing. And I say this because, both Ryan and I have experienced this. When that's all you're doing and you're singularly focused, good to be focused on a goal, bad to be so focused on it that your entire self worth is tied up in that goal and the outcome of it, cuz it can just torch your week or your month sometimes.

[00:20:18] Hannah: And so you wanna have other areas of your life that you're working on something you're working to improve, you're working towards some sort of growth so that you're not completely everything about you. Isn't affected by whether or not you get a job. 

[00:20:32] Ryan: Yeah. And I guess to make it more specific about what we're talking about here is like the, you can't control whether or not these companies call you back.

[00:20:44] Ryan: I'm not even talking about getting a job. Like, I mean, obviously that's the end goal. This is why we're doing. All of this stuff is to get the job, but I'm just talking about getting that call back or 

[00:20:54] Hannah: after the interview.

[00:20:55] Ryan: Right. Or just hearing anything rather than silence out of it. I agree with everything that you said, but we can't control whether or not they tell us we've got the job or not.

[00:21:10] Ryan: Like we can't control them sending that email out and saying, Hey, thanks. Thanks for the time. Get 'em next time champ. 

[00:21:19] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:21:19] Ryan: Like we can't control that and, but we can control, obviously, like we talked about, we can control putting in 300 applications, right. I mean, okay, so that's diversifying the applications, but if you're putting in 300 applications and you get zero interviews or you get one interview out of that, now you're super highly leveraged that one interview.

[00:21:36] Ryan: And now it's been a month since that interview. And you thought that you did well. The reason why you thought you did well was maybe that interviewer said that you did well. And they're like, oh, you know, they're super excited about it. And you haven't heard anything back one, obviously, if you're doing a hundred applications in, maybe you gotta change something up.

[00:21:54] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:21:54] Ryan: You gotta change something up. 

[00:21:55] Hannah: Yeah, maybe that needs to be tweaked a little bit 

[00:21:56] Ryan: right? Exactly. The way that you're applying your resume, something's gotta change. Yeah. But also if we go and put our efforts in something else, maybe you haven't heard back from that one interview, but maybe you went out to the skate park and you landed that trick that you've been trying to land for the past month. And so while you still haven't heard back about that job, you did land that trick and it's an awesome day. 

[00:22:24] Hannah: Yeah. And it doesn't have to even be some big, like it doesn't even have to be something like that. It could be something really simple. Like you're just trying to read all, you're trying to read all the Harry Potter series.

[00:22:34] Hannah: And so your goal is to read like three chapters a day. And as long as you get those three chapters done, it's one other silo that you can complete that you feel like you're making progress and something you wanna do for yourself for whatever reason. 

[00:22:45] Ryan: Yeah, exactly.

[00:22:46] Hannah: Like it can be a small thing. It doesn't have to be some big, like your goal could be to walk one mile a day.

[00:22:50] Hannah: Your goal could be to spend like, 20 minutes with your kid or your spouse or your girlfriend or boyfriend in the morning and just like talk to them and be intentional about your day that's, that's something you can be doing too. 

[00:23:01] Ryan: Right. And you're just getting wins in different areas of your life.

[00:23:06] Ryan: Right. I mean, whether it be playing a game, video games, spending time with your family, working out, whatever it is, It's just good to diversify it in multiple ways. The last way that we can deal with this is gonna be the least effective way because we're still relying on other people but what you could do is you could try to reiterate and encourage, a date for them to follow up with you. 

[00:23:34] Hannah: Mm that's a good idea.

[00:23:35] Ryan: But this is gonna have to go back to when you're having the interview, especially

[00:23:39] Hannah: it's part of that initial conversation. 

[00:23:41] Ryan: And so at the end of the interview, you can save this for whether or not there's that portion of the interview, where they ask you where when most interviews will ask you, do you have any questions for us or do you have any questions for me?

[00:23:56] Ryan: You could ask this question now, or at the very end, when you're shaking hands and you know, saying your goodbyes, you're closing it all out. You could say, okay, well, oh, you said that I would hear back from you. When can I expect to hear back from you? And then have them give you a date and they'll say, oh, next Wednesday.

[00:24:24] Ryan: Or they'll say, oh, well, you'll hear within the month on about whether or not you got it. And so the last thing that we can do is gonna be the least effective because it is going to rely on them still taking an action, which is telling you whether or not you got the job, which is the least effective, but you could try to solidify a time or a date of when you expect to hear back or when you should be expecting to hear back by.

[00:24:58] Hannah: You're kind of getting them to opt in. 

[00:25:00] Ryan: Exactly. And so there's a couple of ways that you could do it, or a couple of places in the interview where you could do it. One of 'em is gonna be at that. Well, do you have any questions for us phase after you've asked your smart questions that you've been thinking about?

[00:25:17] Ryan: The last question that you could ask is say, oh, well, 

[00:25:20] Hannah: when can I expect to hear back?

[00:25:21] Ryan: When can I expect to hear back about this? And then they'll say, oh, well, we're looking to make the decision within a month. And it's like, oh, okay, perfect. And do you let your candidates know either way? .

[00:25:32] Ryan: Whether or not you've gotten it or do you only tell the people that go on to the next round and then they'll say, then they'll clarify with you and they'll say we, oh, we let everybody know. And then at the end, when you're saying goodbye, shaking, hands, kissing babies, you can. Say one more time. Oh, awesome.

[00:25:56] Ryan: Thank you so much for the interview. This has been great. I really look forward to hearing back from you, whatever, whatever I look forward to hearing back either way by this date. 

[00:26:08] Hannah: Ah, and just reiterate 

[00:26:09] Ryan: and just reiterate, 

[00:26:10] Hannah: ah, that is a good, that's a really good tactic. That's a really good tactic as far as you know, you're just sort of, you're just sort of repeating that you're expecting to hear back.

[00:26:20] Hannah: So I feel like that would increase their likelihood of responding to you. I feel like I would be more likely to respond to somebody who had asked me that question. 

[00:26:27] Ryan: Exactly. 

[00:26:28] Hannah: And, and feel more accountable. 

[00:26:29] Ryan: And not only that, I think the key thing here is to try to get a timeframe out of them, because 

[00:26:34] Hannah: then you can follow up.

[00:26:35] Ryan: Not only can you follow up, but then because it came out of their mouths.

[00:26:39] Hannah: Now it's on them.

[00:26:41] Ryan: Right. Instead of saying like, you'll hear back from us either way, we'll let you know whether or not you've got the job and just Le letting it go. And it just being like some ethereal non existent timeframe, if you say, oh, when can I expect to hear back

[00:26:57] Hannah: from you? 

[00:26:58] Ryan: Exactly. And then they give you a time. They're much more likely to let you know, because they said it.

[00:27:04] Hannah: Right. 

[00:27:05] Hannah: They agreed, 

[00:27:06] Ryan: like I said, this is the least effective "way",, because it's still relies on them taking action. 

[00:27:14] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:27:14] Ryan: Whereas the other two or three, I guess if you count diversifying being two, those were all the balls in your court.. 

[00:27:21] Hannah: Right. But still that's if you're gonna do it, that's a good, I wonder too, if you could say, in that end, after you ask, do you have any questions for us after you ask, when do you follow up?

[00:27:31] Hannah: If they give you a time, within a month you would just say, oh, when is it okay for me to follow up with you? If I don't hear back. 

[00:27:37] Ryan: Yeah, that works too. 

[00:27:38] Hannah: Cause I thought that's another way too, that you can give yourself, uh, cuz there's a lot of second guessing too in the, follow up sometimes you're like, is it too soon?

[00:27:46] Hannah: Is it too late? Is it too soon? Am I being annoying? But if you ask and they tell you, oh, like, you know, after two weeks, if you haven't heard back, just shoot me an email and now you know when you're not being annoying. 

[00:27:57] Ryan: Right. And then also instead of saying that, what you could do is you could just send an email.

[00:28:02] Ryan: Say they say two weeks, you'll hear back within two weeks instead of saying, oh, when can I follow up with, instead of asking permission, like you just ask for forgiveness, you just follow up anyway. But at that two week, mark, what you could say is, oh, well this is when I heard back. So, you know, I mean, you don't wanna self eliminate yourself from the job.

[00:28:20] Ryan: Yeah. But that is when you could say, well, if you've hired other candidates, well, I guess let me back up, you could say thank you again. I'm still interested in the role. If it hasn't already been filled, if it has been filled since this is the day that you've said that I would hear back by, please keep you in mind for other roles, whatever,

[00:28:42] Ryan: thank you for your time, 

[00:28:42] Ryan: thank you for your time.

[00:28:43] Ryan: However you want to try to create a professional networking relationship, whatever with this person.

[00:28:50] Hannah: I like that. I like that. I think that's good. It covers all your bases. 

[00:28:54] Ryan: I really like doing these series. If you guys like these series, please let us know contact. 

[00:28:59] Hannah: Tell us what's the biggest job lies you've heard. 

[00:29:01] Ryan: Right.

[00:29:02] Ryan: Yeah. Please contact at degree free.co or you can, hit us up on our social medias at Degree Free on TikTok at Degree Free pod. Pretty much everywhere else, 

[00:29:11] Hannah: Ryan wants things to rant about guys. 

[00:29:14] Ryan: Yeah, I know. Well, this one really, really grinds my gears. 

[00:29:17] Hannah: This really grinds my gear, get your goat.

[00:29:21] Ryan: Yeah. 

[00:29:21] Ryan: And so hopefully there are three ways that we can, deal with this. And, you know, the unfortunate thing is this is 

[00:29:28] Hannah: still gonna happen. Yeah, it is. But now at least you have some actionable things that you can try to mitigate it and feel a little more control over the situation. If you wanna hear more from us, cuz why would you not, then please go ahead and run over to degreefree.co/news letter, and you will get a weekly email from Ryan and I straight to your inbox.

[00:29:48] Ryan: And. If you guys wanted to reach out and say hi, please shoot us an email, contact the degreefree.co let us know. 

[00:29:55] Hannah: We do read them. 

[00:29:55] Ryan: Yeah. Let us know what you're thinking. Let us know any feedback. Let us know the biggest job lies that you've been told. Really. 

[00:30:03] Hannah: We wanna know, we wanna hear 'em. 

[00:30:04] Ryan: Yeah, exactly. And maybe we'll make an episode about it.

[00:30:07] Ryan: That's pretty much it. If you'd like to support the podcast, please consider leaving us a review. Other than that until next time. 

[00:30:15] Ryan: Aloha

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