December 6, 2023

Degree Free is Starting to Catch!, Minnesota Eliminates Degree Requirements from Jobs, and Why Skills > Degrees (DF #126)

Degree Free is Starting to Catch!, Minnesota Eliminates Degree Requirements from Jobs, and Why Skills > Degrees

Why High-Demand Skills Matter More Than Degrees

A college degree isn’t necessary for success. In this episode, we go over the growing trend of employers lowering degree requirements and the importance of identifying high-leverage skills. Let's shift the narrative to 'Degree Free' instead of 'college dropout' and emphasize the value of a skill-based society.

What You’ll Learn:

- Discover how jobs without degrees can be just as lucrative as those requiring a college degree. We debunk the myth that certain jobs are only reserved for college graduates and discuss examples of Degree Free individuals obtaining these roles.
- Learn about the significance of negotiation skills in securing higher salaries, regardless of whether someone has a degree or not. We highlight the impact of starting salaries on future earning potential and share personal stories of negotiation experiences.
- Listen to a thought-provoking conversation about the pressure to follow predetermined paths and the benefits of shifting towards a skill and merit-based society. We address the influence of colleges as marketing machines and question their hold on individuals who did not purchase their product.
- Engage in a discussion about the necessity of college and the value of alternative learning paths. We challenge the idea that college is always the best option and share anecdotes that question its importance.
- Reflect on the financial motivations behind parental insistence on college and explore the broader aspects of life beyond monetary gains. We invite you to reevaluate the traditional expectations imposed on young individuals.

Join us as we unravel the perception of success without a college degree. This episode aims to inspire and empower listeners to embrace skill-based opportunities and negotiate for higher salaries. Let's break free from conventional norms and embrace the 'Degree Free' approach. Don't miss out!

Enjoy the episode!

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Discover the crucial conversations to have with your child about their future – from exploring alternative paths to weighing financial implications – in our latest podcast episode; tune in now for invaluable insights on making informed decisions about college education!

Links and Notes from the Episode

Episode Summary:

In this podcast episode, Hannah and Ryan discuss the misconception that college graduates automatically receive high salaries in negotiations, emphasizing that many companies aim to pay as little as possible while graduates strive for higher contracts. They highlight the trend of companies lowering degree requirements for certain jobs, specifically mentioning Walmart's recent announcement, and urge listeners to use the term "Degree Free" instead of "college dropout" to challenge negative stereotypes.

Hannah and Ryan also discuss the marketing power of colleges and the need to reclaim the term "college age." In this conversation, the speakers express their dislike for referring to young adults as "college-age kids" and criticize colleges for discouraging independent thinking. They debunk the myth that jobs without degrees don't pay well and highlight Minnesota's recent elimination of degree requirements in 75% of state jobs. They argue that pay should be based on skill and merit rather than possessing a degree, questioning the reasoning behind degree requirements.

The passage explores the misconception that having a college degree guarantees higher pay and job security, pointing out that employers prioritize skills, experience, and negotiation abilities over degrees. The speakers encourage individuals to negotiate their salaries and not limit themselves based on their degree. They highlight an anecdote about someone who dropped out of high school but is now making more money than their college-educated spouse, illustrating that success is not solely dependent on a college degree and alternative paths should be considered.

Connect with Ryan:

Connect With Hannah:

Action Steps & Recommendations:

  • Recognize that having a college degree does not guarantee higher pay or job security.
  • Understand that companies aim to secure labor for as little money as possible, while graduates aim to secure higher salaries.
  • Use the term 'degree free' instead of 'college dropout' to challenge negative connotations and embrace the decision.
  • Challenge the misconception that jobs without degrees don't pay well and recognize that many job opportunities are available to Degree Free individuals.
  • Negotiate salaries based on skills, experience, and negotiation abilities rather than solely relying on a degree.
  • Advocate for pay to be based on skill and merit rather than degree requirements.
  • Encourage independent thinking and discourage colleges from trying to keep young adults on a predetermined path.


  • 00:00:00 - Degree Free trend in the job market
  • 00:01:55 - Companies lowering degree requirements
  • 00:07:45 - Finding job backwards by assessing skills needed
  • 00:12:09 - College-age kids should not be referred to as children
  • 00:12:23 - Infantilization of college students and discouragement of critical thinking
  • 00:15:25 - Jobs without degrees pay the same as jobs for college graduates
  • 00:23:07 - Misconceptions about job opportunities without a college degree
  • 00:25:04 - The importance of negotiation in job offers
  • 00:29:06 - Challenging the belief that a college degree guarantees higher pay
  • 00:34:01 - The conversation with Tim
  • 00:34:37 - The impact of streaming and gaming during COVID
  • 00:35:36 - Money and happiness

References, Resources Mentioned & Suggested Reading:

Episode Transcript
Please enjoy this transcript or our episode!

Please note the transcript may have a few errors. We're human. It can be hard to catch all the errors from a full length conversation. Enjoy!

Hannah Maruyama [00:00:00]:

College graduates, listen up. If you believe when you were walking into a negotiation that they are going to hand you money because you bought a degree in marketing or communications, you were delusional. That is not how it works. That is not how it works at all. The company is trying to secure your labor for as little as possible. And when you are walking into negotiation, you are trying to secure a contract working for that company for as much money as possible. Understand, your incentives are completely misaligned in this moment.

Ryan Maruyama [00:00:34]:

Aloha folks, and welcome back. Once again, we are in the temporary studio, so we're going to sound a little bit different. We're going to look a little bit different, but The content is still fire?

Hannah Maruyama [00:00:46]:

Oh, woah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:00:48]:

Do people say that?

Hannah Maruyama [00:00:50]:

I'll allow it, I guess. I don't really wanna continue to podcast. Be I'll allow it for this episode.

Ryan Maruyama [00:00:59]:

Is that a thing that people say?

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:00]:

I I don't think the youths are saying that anymore. Was that? Oh, no. We just watched the last episode of The Office. As you Oh

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:10]:

my god. I got I just did that.

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:12]:

I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed for you.

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:14]:

That's that's so funny. Okay. Anyway, I am really excited. Dude, people are using our word.

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:22]:

Oh, everywhere.

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:23]:


Hannah Maruyama [00:01:24]:

Everywhere. Forbes, CNBC, DOD reports.

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:27]:

Degree free. And I will say it was intentional, and we hope that more people Use the terminology. It's just crazy to see something that you and I came up with.

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:38]:

Used to describe a movement in an economic job market trend.

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:42]:

Yes. Exactly. I mean, we invented those words put together in that way. Yeah. We invented degree free. It was from our brains. And now we have media outlets

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:55]:

Using it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:55]:

Parroting it, and that's Amazing. And that's exactly what we intended. It's just interesting to see it when it happens. So the first thing that I wanna talk about is this CNBC article that Uses the degree free words. It's like Walmart sends a new degree free message about getting a corporate job. That's something about the the title. And so not only are they using degree free, but they're talking in the right context, which is Walmart is lowering be Their degree requirements for a lot of their corporate jobs. This is a trend that is going to continue to happen into the future.

Ryan Maruyama [00:02:32]:

I guarantee it. And we called it many years ago. But on this podcast, just 2 years ago, this is a 120 something episodes So far of the degree free.

Hannah Maruyama [00:02:43]:

Getting up there.

Ryan Maruyama [00:02:44]:

Yeah. And so this is just awesome, awesome, awesome to see. I I did wanna quote the article a little bit here, and this is actually an article quote from a Blog post quote. So I am quoting an article that is quoting a blog post.

Hannah Maruyama [00:03:04]:

Well, this is

Ryan Maruyama [00:03:06]:

Quote inception.

Hannah Maruyama [00:03:07]:


Ryan Maruyama [00:03:08]:

We're writing job descriptions for our campus headquarters jobs be To factor in the skills people possess alongside any degrees they hold, Walmart said in a corporate blog post in late September, coauthored by Lorraine Stomski, senior vice president, associate learning and leadership, and Julie Gehrke, vice president, Entropy. To be considered for the job, you can have a related college degree or possess the skills needed for the job, whether through Previous experience or other forms of learning. What I find interesting about the lowering of The degree requirement and explicitly allowing degree free people in the door be is that they have been employing degree free people, and so many other companies have been employing degree free people for years prior. It's just that they want access, explicit access to a much larger talent pool. And so they are going on, And they're saying with their PR team, like, okay. We're gonna drop these degree requirements so that more degree free people No. No. And they actually apply.

Ryan Maruyama [00:04:20]:

But all of those degree free people that have been listening to us for 2 years, you guys already know. You guys That are listening to this. You already applied. Yeah. And they probably hired you because they didn't care anyway.

Hannah Maruyama [00:04:34]:

Yeah. This is something I see really commonly too that a lot of people think. They say, well, degrees are required for that job. I'm like, just because the job listing says a degree is required does not mean that that's who they hire for the job. Like, I know that's mind blowing for a lot of college graduates. I don't know if they think it's legally that they can't or they don't. That's not accurate. They hire whoever they hire, and they're not gonna report to you.

Hannah Maruyama [00:04:56]:

They're not gonna say, here's the breakdown of our company hires, and this many of them were degree free even though we said we required bachelor's degrees on our job listings? They're not gonna tell you. They're not gonna tell you, but they are hiring people that are degree free. How do we know that? Because they're in the companies. They're in the companies. They've been there, and the majority of the employed US workforce is degree free.

Ryan Maruyama [00:05:18]:

Yeah. It is something that I can speak to because that mentality and that mindset is the mentality and mindset that I had when I was in college. I looked at the job descriptions for all of these things, and there was only one line that said required. And I've said this a lot in this podcast, but I'll say it again, Which is it said college degree required, and that was the only thing that was required out of the whole thing. Everything else Was experience suggested or recommended or would be nice, you know, nice to haves, and then it lists all of the things That would be nice to have. And then under the requirements, there's, like, one thing, and that's the college degree. And it doesn't even say what type of degree. A lot of jobs.

Ryan Maruyama [00:06:01]:

I mean, some jobs say finance degree preferred, marketing degree preferred, but they don't care. They don't care. They wanna know. Usually, the things that they actually care about are really in the nice to have section. That's really what they care about. And this gets into, you know, how to Change jobs and then how to pick different skills for you to get a different job or even to get started off if you're in high listening to this right now or you're a parent of a high schooler listening to this right now. This gets into, like, how to identify high leverage skills to learn to do that. And so one of the things is looking through those job descriptions and seeing all of the things that come up all the time, The different tools and the different skills.

Ryan Maruyama [00:06:45]:

You go through. You pick out all the tools that they're using, pick out all the skills that they're saying, Okay. This is the skill that you need to have. These are the tools that you're gonna be working with, and you do that for, like, 10 job descriptions. And then you see which ones match, And then you go and you learn the one that comes up the most, usually. There's a whole system behind it, And we'll put links in the show notes for everybody. Degreefree.c04/podcast to the episodes where we talk about how to find a job backwards because that's be The process of which I'm describing, and you can do that at any age. Parents can help their kids do that if you, parent, be Or you, job seeker, if you're in your fifties, if you're in your forties, doesn't matter what age you are, if you are trying to get out of the job that you are in now or you are trying to be your 1st job, that is one of the most, if not the most effective way to go ahead and get be Those jobs and acquire those skills, which is find a job backwards.

Hannah Maruyama [00:07:45]:

Yeah. I'm all for that. And that answers the question too. A lot of the times when we speak on our TikTok, one of the questions that I get is, what about 30 year old single moms or 30 year old stay at home moms that are trying to get back from the workforce? The answer is find a job backwards. And like Ryan said, the links will be in the show notes, but that's how you do it. Go look up the job listings, see what skills are mentioned most often, then assess which one is gonna be the most high impact for you to learn, and then start applying once you've learned that skill. That's it. It's that simple.

Hannah Maruyama [00:08:13]:

It really is.

Ryan Maruyama [00:08:14]:

And I wanted to Say one more thing about the whole degree free verbiage and movement or I'm using movement in quotes here, but it Was very intentional the way that we named this. Right? Because we looked and we saw all of the other words that were out there being be used for people that do not have college degrees and for the verbiage of people that have opted to live their life in a different way than what these other people they're labeling you as. And so I would challenge you listening to this to also use degree free in your daily life. Instead of saying, like, I'm a college dropout, like, say, I'm degree free Because that is more accurate. College dropout is so negative.

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:02]:

They own it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:03]:

Right. Because you're saying, oh, I dropped out of this thing, and the implied meaning of it is, like, I was supposed to finish. Most people finish, but because most people finish And I didn't. That's a negative thing. And so it's like, no.

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:19]:

Don't Instead of, I assess this is the wrong course of action for me, and I shouldn't have been here spending money.

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:23]:

Exactly. I assess that this purchase and this effort wasn't worth it. And so I made a different decision, and I'm proud of it. And the reason why I say, like, college dropout, a lot of people when they Start speaking about college even if they are successful when they say, oh, yeah. I didn't go to college or I didn't finish. I have some college. I'm a college drop off. Even if they're successful, they retreat into themselves.

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:45]:

There are the outliers and the there are people in the comments of this video. They'd be like, no. Not me, bro. I'm a call a dropout. I love it. I love it. Okay.

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:53]:


Ryan Maruyama [00:09:54]:

That's awesome. That's amazing. A lot of people, when they start talking about their college Experience and going to college, a lot of people start to shrink into themselves when they start thinking about, no, you know, I didn't get that degree. I didn't do it. Be like, instead, Hold your head up high and just be like, yeah. I'm degree free. And what? Yeah. I'm degree free, and I'm successful.

Ryan Maruyama [00:10:12]:

And what? Or I'm degree free, and I'm not successful. And what? Who cares?

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:15]:

Colleges are the absolute best marketing machine we have ever seen. It's unbelievable. Ryan's gonna do some breakdowns of those as we're getting into it. It's pretty fun. You guys, you're gonna wanna see it. But colleges are such good marketers, and the fact that they own you even if you don't buy from them. Like, what is that? That's so crazy. How in the world have we allowed them to say that if you do not buy a product from them, they still own you? You're a college dropout.

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:44]:

No. No. No. No. No. I decided not to continue purchasing your products because it did not serve my purpose. That is absolutely ridiculous to let them own your identity when you did not buy from them. That's ridiculous.

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:57]:

That's ridiculous. And And not only that, but then we talked about it the other day. I was on a podcast with Mike Wheeler, who's a Salesforce guy, and we were talking about the fact that they call 18 to 24 year olds college age. Everyone knows that that's college age. Like, schools use it. Churches use it. People use it. Most Americans do not buy college degrees.

Hannah Maruyama [00:11:16]:

How in the world do colleges get to the point where they own an entire age bracket de facto? That box is checked. That's Unbelievably pervasive marketing. Unbelievable.

Ryan Maruyama [00:11:28]:

Yeah. They're amazing marketers and is one of the reasons, and this was In a few episodes ago, a few weeks ago, we were talking about it. We have to try to capture that word back. Right. And so workshopping a few things. New adult is on the front runner. I think young adult's also pretty good. I'm open The suggestions of any of you that are watching this, listening to this, go to YouTube, comment.

Ryan Maruyama [00:11:54]:

What should be the replacement for college aged adults or college age kids. When people say it, it's usually college age kids. They're not kids, but that's usually the 3 words that are put side by side.

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:09]:

Oh, yeah. But I think that's part of it too though. That's part of the thing that I don't really like is Why are you calling someone who's 18 to 24 years old, who in an ideal world, for most Americans, is a working tax paying adult? You're not a child. You can vote. You're not a child. You're paying taxes. That's ridiculous. I hate that.

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:23]:

I can't stand it. And it's one of those things where it just goes to show too how colleges try to infantilize a certain age demographics because they want them to just follow the path, follow the path, follow the path. And they don't want them actually to think for themselves. They don't want them to question, because they just want them to buy, stay on the path, and don't rock the boat. That's what they want. Alright.

Ryan Maruyama [00:12:41]:

Now when I ask a question, infantilize? That mean, like

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:45]:

and tantalize it and make them childlike.

Ryan Maruyama [00:12:47]:

Got it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:47]:

Make them seem younger than they are. I was

Ryan Maruyama [00:12:49]:

making sure you knew what that meant.

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:50]:

Yes. I do.

Ryan Maruyama [00:12:53]:

I was just making sure that you know.

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:54]:

Why would you

Ryan Maruyama [00:12:54]:

I definitely know that.

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:55]:

When I was 18, if someone called me a kid, I would go, what are you talking about? When I was 18, I was working full time. What do you mean a kid? I'm working. I'm paying my bills.

Ryan Maruyama [00:13:03]:

The the

Hannah Maruyama [00:13:03]:

what's your

Ryan Maruyama [00:13:04]:

you're getting at. I I hear what you're saying. I I completely hear what you're saying, but that's all. Like, It

Hannah Maruyama [00:13:09]:

is awful. My personal feelings. Right. It just bothers me. I don't like it. I don't like it. And the other thing is I'm working with a lot of these new adults, and they're 17, 18, running on the cusp there, and they're not kids. They are new adults that they are trying to figure out what directions to take.

Hannah Maruyama [00:13:23]:

They're trying to figure out how to work, how to pay bills, how to set up their life, and I don't like this. Let's push them more into making them children.

Ryan Maruyama [00:13:31]:

The amazing thing about that is, talking about kids, Is they made one of the most grown up decisions of their entire life if they go all the way through college, If they end up going to college. Right? I mean, we're talking about how they've captured an entire section of age. But if they did end up going be college and they continue to purchase. They're making $30,000 purchases a year, every single year, and they're gonna get out of college with massive amount of debt. And that's a pretty adult thing. I did wanna say thank you for teasing that, and you're making me commit to it Because I was thinking about it. We were talking about it the other night

Hannah Maruyama [00:14:10]:


Ryan Maruyama [00:14:11]:

About the different college marketing tactics and what they do. And we were talking about it. I was like, oh, I think I might do it. I don't know. But now that you said it, like, alright. Screw it. I'll commit. And so, yes, next week, I'm gonna start my 1st segment on it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:14:28]:

I don't know what it's gonna be about, but I'm gonna start my 1st segment on it Next week. So make sure that you are subscribed. YouTube, podcast, wherever it is that you get.

Hannah Maruyama [00:14:38]:

That your podcasts are sold.

Ryan Maruyama [00:14:39]:


Hannah Maruyama [00:14:40]:

Moving on. So I wanna talk about something that is one of the biggest logical mismatches that I see on TikTok, and that in the comments. Right? Because I see the same comments over and over and over again. They're just phrased slightly differently, but it's always the same comment. Sometimes, I wish I had a dollar for super repetitive comments because then we wouldn't have to work or do anything. We could just, we could just have dollars from people making the same comment over and over and over and over and over again. Anyway, this comment is, well, the jobs without degrees don't pay well. Now what's funny about this is that a lot of times when they're citing I'll say, what types of jobs are you talking about? And the jobs that they list will pay the exact same amount as lots of jobs that college graduates have.

Hannah Maruyama [00:15:25]:

Also, a lot of times, they're literally the same jobs. But that aside, the pay is exactly the same. So, like, 51 k, 51 k. So there's 2 points. 1, a lot of college graduates suffer from the delusion that there is a segment of jobs that are gated off and reserved for them. That's not true. Degree Free People can apply for those jobs, Degree Free People do apply for those jobs, and Degree Free People do get those jobs. And you have no idea how many of them are employed in those jobs.

Hannah Maruyama [00:15:50]:

You don't know. You don't know. You just believe the college, and you just believe this line on a job listing that's been recycled for 15 years and that has not been updated by HR that says that a college degree is required. There are people who just apply for those jobs and get them, and they're not gated off from them. Like, they're not legally gated off. They're not ethically gated off, and people do apply for and get them. That aside, a lot of people will say, oh, well, you know, those jobs just don't pay well, but they're the exact same jobs that are available to college graduates. The only difference between someone who's degree free who gets that job and someone who is a college graduate that gets that job is the fact that the college graduate spent a lot of money to end up in the exact same job, the exact same job.

Hannah Maruyama [00:16:32]:

And so the only difference is the purchase. And so to me, a lot of it is just that they believe that they have to make the purchase to get that $51,000 a year job. That's not true. That's just not true. And I'm not talking about teaching. I'm not talking about jobs where it's licensure that's legally required by whatever state, even though just for everyone's information. 17 states now have paid apprenticeship programs for teachers, but that would be a example that I'm sure someone will come back with. And so That was my point that I just wanted to make is that a lot of times, the jobs without degrees that they're talking about are the exact same jobs that college graduates can get.

Hannah Maruyama [00:17:05]:

And oftentimes, the only difference between people holding those jobs is that the college graduates have debt. That's it. That's the only difference.

Ryan Maruyama [00:17:11]:

Yeah. I couldn't agree more with you. And instead of commenting on what you are saying right now, once again, we don't really like planning these. We don't really know what each Person's gonna bring to the party. I think that you were peeking on my notes a little bit because that's kind of sort of where I'm going, which is why I'm just gonna go there. Mine is kind of Two points in 1. And so the first thing that I wanted to talk about and I'm gonna get back to what you're saying about the Jobs that are available to degree free people are the exact same jobs that are available to people with a college degree. But before we get there, Minnesota, the governor, eliminated degree requirements in 75% of state jobs.

Ryan Maruyama [00:17:55]:

It's happening.

Hannah Maruyama [00:17:57]:

It's happening. It's happening. This is not a drill. But also, what does that tell you? They didn't need them the whole time.

Ryan Maruyama [00:18:03]:


Hannah Maruyama [00:18:04]:

They didn't need them the entire time. Anybody that bought a degree to get a job in the state government, Minnesota should be pissed.

Ryan Maruyama [00:18:13]:

It's an interesting Thing that's happening and it's happening right now. If you're listening to this podcast, you're still early. Like, we're still early

Hannah Maruyama [00:18:23]:


Ryan Maruyama [00:18:23]:

In this wave of degree free society, really, and its people not having that same reference to College degrees.

Hannah Maruyama [00:18:33]:

Yeah. It's a skill, ability, and merit based society. We're going back to the future.

Ryan Maruyama [00:18:37]:

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. That's what people are going to care about, and that's what people care about right now. It was interesting in the article that I read in the I'll link the article from [email protected]/podcast. What was interesting about it was that they got a bunch be of people that had differing opinions on whether or not it was a good or a bad thing, which I thought was interesting. And so I'm going to quote a little bit of the article right now.

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:12]:

And this is from David Schultz, a political science professor at the University of Minnesota be And Hamline University. Hamline? Hamline. Should

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:20]:

I guess as to whether he's for

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:23]:

or against?

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:24]:

Sure. Against.

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:24]:

Well, on. Said the executive order left him with many questions about what caused Walt to create and sign this order. He said he questions whether certain research or data went into creating the order and if long term implications were considered. The quote, How is this going to have a broader impact on pay and pay scales question mark? Schultz asked. The Argument say that, well, since you don't have a college degree, we don't have to pay you as much. I don't know. End quote.

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:00]:

My money is on professor Schultz has no idea what the median income is for a graduate of his political science program. He has no clue what the market looks like. Not a clue. If If you walk into his classroom and ask them, how much are they gonna make? What are their job prospects? He has no idea.

Ryan Maruyama [00:20:16]:

Sure. That might be something to it. I'm not sure. What I found interesting about this take was that this is such a papered mindset. Like, this is somebody who is institutionalized

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:30]:

Literally, in this institution. Degree free podcaster says the professor is institutionalized.

Ryan Maruyama [00:20:38]:

Literally in this institution.

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:40]:

Right. You're in an institution. You walk in 1 every day.

Ryan Maruyama [00:20:42]:

That's institutionalized.

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:43]:

Or you walk in 1 whenever you actually teach your class. Yeah. Oh, no.

Ryan Maruyama [00:20:49]:

And so but really, you know, this is the take of somebody who

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:54]:

Walked into a college campus 40 years ago and never walked off.

Ryan Maruyama [00:20:57]:

Sure. Yeah. But who is also feeding into the system. Right? And his livelihood

Hannah Maruyama [00:21:02]:

Depends on it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:21:03]:

Depends on other people believing The BS that's coming out of his mouth. Right? Because really, in my mind, if you're doing the same job and it's the same job requirements, Why are you gonna pay anybody any differently? It doesn't matter. Can you do the job? Sure. Here's $47,000 a year. Can you do the job? Sure. Here's $47,000 a year. And it's like, okay. Maybe you negotiate differently, right, which is a completely Different.

Ryan Maruyama [00:21:33]:

If you negotiate differently, and we've talked about this before, I think that's where a lot of the disparity comes from Yeah. Is and and a lot of it has to do with the debt. Right. Because these college graduates have to service debt more. Yeah. Right? They are sitting on this 400, be $500 a month payment between their federal loans and their private loans. They're sitting on this, and they're just like, from a cash flow perspective, I have to make more money, and therefore, I have to bargain harder.

Hannah Maruyama [00:22:04]:

Otherwise, I can't buy food.

Ryan Maruyama [00:22:06]:

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. That's the reason why I think They get paid more.

Hannah Maruyama [00:22:10]:

Because they train them in college to negotiate. They don't know how to negotiate. They just have to. They must.

Ryan Maruyama [00:22:16]:

Yes. Yeah. The job listing is for $47. And for $47, regardless of who applies to it, and let's just say there's no negotiation as a take or deliver proposition, It doesn't matter whether or not you have a degree or not have a degree from the business perspective, where, like, who cares? Who cares? Can you do the job? Okay. Perfect. Right. But this is somebody who needs to have the take that this degree that I'm a part in selling and that If this degree continues to go down, which it has been over the recent years in a small part because of the degree free podcast Yeah. And what we're doing.

Ryan Maruyama [00:22:50]:

Right. But if it continues going down in this trajectory, will I have a job still? Will this institution still be around? Look. I don't know how old this guy is, and so maybe he's on the way out. Maybe not. You know what I mean? But if he's new in his career, maybe that's a concern.

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:07]:

Yeah. And if I were him, I would be concerned about my livelihood as well. Because when when you're using AI to make all of your PowerPoint slides to teach your remote class, I'd be worried about that too. But, anyway, I think that there's 2 things there. So one, there's no data on that. You don't know. So I see that a lot. College graduates on TikTok will just say, oh, well, degree free people get paid a lot less.

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:29]:

Like, you don't know that. You have no idea. They think that if you walk into a job, if you walk into and and I'm not talking about something where there are legal pay bans. I'm not talking about something that where where there's federal or state, like, pay bands. That's a totally different thing. I am talking about they believe like, if if a software developer walks into Google and one of them has a degree and one of them is degree free, they believe that they will just put them down. They won't. They won't.

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:58]:

It depends on their portfolio. It depends on how they interview. It depends on how they negotiate. I don't know where they get this idea from because I don't I don't think colleges, like, directly teach it to them, but they must imply it. And I did see someone someone tagged me in a stitch a while ago of a high school teacher trying to scare straight, basically, all of these high by telling them that if they don't buy a college degree, they're not gonna get paid as much and they're not gonna spend as much time with their families, which is hilarious for so many reasons, but they she was just telling them, you're not gonna be able to get paid the same amount. Like, that's just patently false. That's just patently false.

Ryan Maruyama [00:24:31]:

Hey there. I hope that you're loving this episode of the degree free podcast. We spend a ton of time every week be creating this content for you. So my only ask is you take a quick second to leave a review or a thumbs up on whatever platform you're on. It's one of the best and easiest ways that you can support This podcast and this simple action can help bring more people into the degree free community. At degree free, we wanna help as many people as we can thrive and succeed without needing a college Your review will be a step in that direction. If you could do this small favor right now, pause this and leave a review. It would truly mean the world to us.

Ryan Maruyama [00:25:04]:

Thank you. And back to the show. You definitely have to negotiate every time that you are getting a new job. Yeah. Every time that you're getting a new job, every time that you're up for a promotion, negotiate. You've got nothing to lose. It's 1 or 2. It's a set be of conversations that only happens once every 6 years, once every 2 years, once a year even still is not that high, A a high ratio of days to conversation.

Ryan Maruyama [00:25:32]:

You know what I mean? Like, you have to negotiate. I remember, and this was a while back, so I might misquote this, But this is just from memory. This is, like, back when I was in college and when I first left college. And there was some research that I was reading at the time, and this might be completely wrong, but that was saying that your first rate really matters. And that is for a bunch of reasons. One of the reasons is because internally, It ascribes a network or a worth to you. Right? Like

Hannah Maruyama [00:26:07]:

Oh, you limit based on that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:26:08]:

Yes. Exactly. So externally, like, that's the Obvious reasons, which is like, well, if you're taking this job for $10 an hour, why am I gonna pay you to do this other job for 20? Or why am I gonna make the jump from 10 to 30? And so sure. There's that external, but I think a lot of it has to do with like, you start off at a $10 an hour job, and then you, you start looking at these $30 an hour roles. And you're just like, well, I don't really deserve that because I'm a $10 an hour worker. And so a lot of it is you start making decisions, and you

Hannah Maruyama [00:26:38]:

start Self limiting.

Ryan Maruyama [00:26:39]:

Self limiting and then self eliminating from those types of opportunities.

Hannah Maruyama [00:26:44]:


Ryan Maruyama [00:26:45]:

And so With negotiation, it's just so important to do it because you're only gonna have those conversations for most people. I forget the stat. I think it was, like, 7 7 different jobs they have over their entire life or something like that. It's, like, less than ten Jobs that you have in your entire life. And if if that's the case, then, I mean, you should be having that conversation 10 times. You should be negotiating 10 times. And I'm saying that for the degree free people that don't have that debt burden on their back. And so they're just like, You're looking in, like, $47 is pretty good.

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:18]:

Pretty good. I I don't have that $500 a month debt payment to service.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:22]:

So at the knees, as aggressive?

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:24]:

Whatever 47,000 is, and this is what I say whenever I'm helping people negotiate, is even if you are gonna go in there And let's say that you were gonna take $40, and they start out at 47. And you're just like, okay. Alright. Let's do it. No.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:39]:

No. No. Ask higher. There's more money.

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:41]:

Even if it is higher, you're still gonna ask for more money. And what I normally say is just have a percentage Amount that you're gonna ask for above that. So let's just say it's 20%, and they offer you $45. Right? So 20% of 45 is 9. Right. And so you just say, well, I want 54,000. Why? Because I feel like it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:28:03]:

The math in public, though.

Ryan Maruyama [00:28:04]:

Yeah. Yeah. And so I want $54 a year, and they're like, 45, bro, in here. It's like, okay.

Hannah Maruyama [00:28:12]:

Right. That's $5 more than I was gonna ask for.

Ryan Maruyama [00:28:14]:

Exactly. I was gonna take $40 anyway. But If they say yes or if they come up even, hey. And that's 1 conversation down. And now you just have to have 9 more of those over your entire career if that's your first conversation.

Hannah Maruyama [00:28:27]:

You know what? For once, I don't do this often, but college graduates, listen up. If you believe when you are walking into a negotiation that they are going to hand you money because you bought a degree in marketing or communications, you were delusional. That is not how it works. That is not how it works at all. The company is trying to secure your labor for as little as possible. And when you are walking into negotiation, you are trying to secure a contract working for that company for as much money as possible. Understand your incentives are completely misaligned in this moment, and you need to understand that there is not a set aside, oh, well, they have a marketing degree. Check that box.

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:06]:

Add $10 to this offer. No. Ask. You have to ask high. Do not walk in there suffering from the delusion that they're going to pay you because you paid a college. Point a, here. Point b, it's here. They are not related at all.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:22]:

You are describing my exact experience with my first negotiation out of college.

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:28]:

Oh God, if you guys wanna hear this story, it's so freaking good.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:33]:

But, basically, I've said it on this podcast before, so I'm gonna repeat it here. Yeah. But Basically, I went in there, and I had a degree in economics. And I was just like, oh, man. Communications of math. Yeah. The communications of math, bro. Like, Yes.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:48]:


Hannah Maruyama [00:29:49]:

I'm not that funny, guys, but that's one of the funniest things I've ever said.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:51]:

Yeah. I don't know why I'm saying bro so much today, but you're a bro.

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:55]:

Thanks. Thanks, hon.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:57]:

I thought after reading all of these different online websites and expectations, $90 is what I was gonna get be for this job. And, obviously, I looked at the pay rate. The pay rate wasn't listed for this job, but I thought I was gonna get, I don't know, maybe because or something like that, but they came in at 31,000.

Hannah Maruyama [00:30:14]:

You left that out of the story. We you left out your expectations out of the story when you told it the first time, I think.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:19]:

Well, no. No. No. Well, it's somewhere in the store. But, anyway, it

Hannah Maruyama [00:30:21]:

doesn't matter.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:22]:

I thought I was gonna get paid, like, 60,000 or so. And so, yeah, 31 Was what they came in at, and then I countered with 37.

Hannah Maruyama [00:30:31]:

Not $31, folks. $62,000

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:34]:

a year. And then I countered at $37,000. But, anyway yes. And so

Hannah Maruyama [00:30:41]:

Sorry that it came by every time.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:43]:

Is literally my life's Story is, you know, walking into that negotiation thinking that I deserved x amount of money because all these online resources Said that my degree needed to get paid this amount of money. And this is what this was worth. Right? Like, that's literally what I thought. And I understand how other people feel the same way.

Hannah Maruyama [00:31:06]:

Yeah. That is a good story. Please go back and listen to it. It's even funnier when he tells it he tells it in full detail. So we're gonna do this little bit. We're gonna do crazy comments from TikTok, and I have 2 that I think are pretty good today. Number 1, My wife told me it's mandatory for our kids to go to college. My son dropped out of high school, broke out, and makes 250 k, and she makes 45 k with her degree.

Hannah Maruyama [00:31:34]:

So my question for you is how would you handle this?

Ryan Maruyama [00:31:36]:

We've talked about this a few times on this podcast. And so This reminds me so much of a conversation that you and I had with Mike and it was about his Doctor. Sun. He was talking to us about how his son is 16 years old. He is a streamer, Professional gamer, and this was a while ago. Oh, yeah. This was like

Hannah Maruyama [00:32:00]:

Before COVID.

Ryan Maruyama [00:32:02]:

7 year no. Not that long ago. 5 5 years, 6 years ago? 5, 6 years ago? Yeah. And so the dad was like, yeah. He's making, like, $150 or something like that. It was over 6 figures be And making more than Mike was making.

Hannah Maruyama [00:32:18]:


Ryan Maruyama [00:32:18]:

And he's like, yeah. He's 16 years old, and he's making all this money. But he's just like, yeah. I just keep saying, You gotta go to college. You gotta do something with your life. And you and I sat there, and this was before degree free. Right? This is, like, 6 years ago. Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:32:31]:

But we held this opinion already.

Hannah Maruyama [00:32:32]:


Ryan Maruyama [00:32:33]:

We're just like we we looked at him, and we're like, why? Why does he have to go to college? So that he can and he's like, Oh, you know, so that he can get, like, a business degree, and he can do business. And and so so he can be a better person and whatever. All the Things that you hear parents convince their kids to spend a $100 over five and a half years to do because they're indoctrinated into this. And so he threw the kitchen sink at us as far as, like, you know, the excuses of why his son had to go to college. And I was just like, Yeah. But he makes more money than you. Yeah. Don't you think that if he kept doing this, like as far as business goes, like, Don't you think that he's gonna learn a lot about business and about how business operates, especially in that realm? The reason why in that realm was because, you know, that's so early.

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:24]:

Right? 6, 7 years ago when we're talking about esports, That's so early, and he's able to make 6 plus figures back then as a, basically, a business.

Hannah Maruyama [00:33:35]:

And at sixteen. He'd figured out how to do that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:38]:

Right? Exactly. He's already learning about business. He's already learning about it. You know what I mean? Like why does he have to go to college be at all. The thing that really blew my mind was, his doubt was, like, I just wanted to, like, kinda put this whole thing behind him. What was interesting about that conversation, though, As I do feel, like, at the end of that conversation, we had maybe not changed his mind.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:01]:

I think no one had ever asked Tim, why? And no one had ever said I remember I asked him. I was like, aren't you proud of him? Because I would be. I would be super proud if My 16 year old kid figured out how to do that. That's trial and error. That's not an easy thing to do.

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:16]:

Yeah. And so I definitely think at the end of it, he at least thought about it more. I could tell by his demeanor and by what he was saying. He accepted what we were saying. I don't know if he agreed with it,

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:29]:

but heard it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:29]:

But he heard it. Yeah. I hope that we were able to provide a little bit of guidance and Maybe it changed his opinion. We haven't talked to him since, you know, we didn't really know him.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:37]:

I wonder what happened though because Mike himself worked in tourism, and this was pre COVID in Hawaii. And I would be very interested to know what happened because I would imagine that he was out of work, and I would imagine his son made even more money because of COVID, and streaming and gaming in general just had a massive explosion.

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:55]:

And as far as these conversations and how to handle it Or what should you think about these types of things? The first thing that I wanna say is that life isn't about money. Right? And so, Sure. Let's just get that out of the way. It's not necessarily all about money, but I say it all the time on this podcast. Money doesn't buy happiness, But it sure helps. Right? And so we're just gonna say, okay, $250 for $45,000. She's saying that he has to go to college and all of their kids have to go to college. Obviously it is not because they want The child to be better off financially.

Ryan Maruyama [00:35:36]:

No. That's obviously not true. I don't know what he does, but I'm not saying that Whatever he does and going to college are mutually exclusive activities, but something's gotta give somewhere. I'm assuming your income's gonna go down a little bit If you do go to college. So it's obviously not on that access is what we care about. That's not the goal. So what is it really? And that's the question that all parents and people that are pushing young adults to go to college to have to ask themselves Especially in this scenario, like, well, my son makes more money than me. And I think if with more money, He will be more successful, have a little bit easier.

Ryan Maruyama [00:36:16]:

Like I said, it doesn't buy happiness, but it helps. And so why am I saying what is my bias towards college?

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:23]:

Why do I need him to go?

Ryan Maruyama [00:36:25]:

Why am I saying this? Is it because I want him to be quote educated? Is it because I want him to be around His peers, is it because I want the experience or in my mind, is it because you think That it's the only way to have and live a good life. The you think that this is the cookie cutter role And you are projecting you're projecting your own beliefs on your child and the beliefs that were, You know, probably relevant, maybe relevant. I'm not sure. But 20 years ago when you made that decision.

Hannah Maruyama [00:37:01]:

Right. I think something too that deserves to be addressed here is that if you want your child to go for one of 2 reasons that I think are ones that you really need to examine internally. One would be because you're afraid of what your family and friends will think if they do not go. That's a real problem. And I actually hear that a lot from parents that they get a lot of pressure from their friends and family, like, and they get a lot of shame if they don't push their child to sign an unforgivable loan at 17 years old. And the other thing is if it's because you, yourself, are gonna be embarrassed if they do not. That's a big one too because your ego does not matter more than your child's future financial security. And there's a lot of parents that, like, for whatever reason, that's difficult for them to swallow, but they need to figure it out.

Hannah Maruyama [00:37:46]:

They need to sort that out within themselves.

Ryan Maruyama [00:37:48]:

Yeah. Well, it just goes down to, like, external validation. Right? And and as a parent, you might have thought that that was the way to success, And you might have thought for a long time that, okay, I'm going to make enough money to provide for my child. And the way that I'm gonna provide for my child is I'm Sure. That they have food to eat. You know, they have clean water to drink. They have a roof over their head. They have clothes on their back, And then they are going to be educated, and they're going to go to college.

Ryan Maruyama [00:38:17]:

Right? Like, they're gonna be educated is is one thing, And then going to college is another. But what a lot of people do is they mix those 2 things up, and it's

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:25]:

They conflate them.

Ryan Maruyama [00:38:26]:

Exactly. And they combine those. And so you don't really care about the education. You just care about the college because you think that college equals education, which is erroneous. It doesn't, you can be educated and go to college. You can be educated in college, but college does not equal education. Yeah. You could be very educated and have never step on a college campus ever in your life.

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:50]:


Ryan Maruyama [00:38:50]:

You can be Super educated.

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:51]:

Yeah. You don't have to pay a college assent to be educated.

Ryan Maruyama [00:38:54]:

Exactly. But it's that external validation. Usually, Doctor. It's the last thing that you're going to really, really help your child with before they go into The baby making years and the grandchild years. It's like you are launching them in that direction. And you wanna make sure that as new adults, as young adults, that they are headed off in the right direction, and it's the thing that you think makes the most sense for their life.

Hannah Maruyama [00:39:22]:

Yeah. Remember, especially if it's their money and not your money. Careful. Alright. Crazy comment number 2. I have $176,000 in student loans. Can't get out of entry level jobs, and I can't even use my degree. What can I do? This is what I'm gonna say for anybody who's got massive, massive student loan debt.

Hannah Maruyama [00:39:40]:

This is my advice. My advice to you is if you have that much student debt, the best most effective thing you can do I wanna do something that's my passion. F that. Be chuck it. You need to go find the most profitable skill you can find, and you need to learn it as quickly as possible. And then you need to pay down that debt as aggressively as humanly possible, and you need to do that by whatever means necessary. If you need to move home, if you need to cut your expenses, if you need 18 roommates, Get that off of your back because it is not you cannot declare bankruptcy. You cannot get rid of it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:14]:

It will ruin your life if you do not get ahead of it. If you're young enough that you still are are talking about your student loans and entry level job, you need to wipe whatever career. Like, whatever it is, it's probably not enough to pay that back. And so you need to just completely ditch that. Don't get stressed over the amount of time you spend on it. It's all done. That's all gone. You spent the money.

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:34]:

You spent the time. Start from 0. You need to go, alright. What's something that can make a lot of money? And off the top of my head, recommendations are gonna be sales. Like, go learn how to sell stuff, and then go find something that's expensive to sell and sell it. I'm talking, like, solar packages. I'm talking software. I'm talking go find something that's high dollar and learn how to sell that.

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:55]:

Like, sell mobile homes, sell actual homes. I don't know. But sell something, make commission, and pay that off as soon as you can.

Ryan Maruyama [00:41:01]:

Yeah. I think the key here is putting aside your pride. Right. And it's putting aside your pride and really, really taking an objective view be of your life situation. I know just by the nature of what we do for a living that a lot of people, when they say I have a $170,000 worth of student loan debt. Like, what can I do in my field of study? Yeah. Probably. They want to employ the degree be Or the degrees multiple degrees that they got over the years.

Ryan Maruyama [00:41:34]:

And it makes sense. Look. You spent 5 years getting it. But to get a $170,000 worth of debt, You probably spent more years. You probably went after 2 degrees, maybe even 3 degrees, right, in order to end up there. So And so I get it. You spent all of this time, you spent all of this money, and you really want to quote unquote employ this degree, but really that's just pride. And so I agree with your scenario, with your advice.

Ryan Maruyama [00:42:02]:

Just go out and make as much money as possible and pay down that debt. When you start to pay down that debt, when you start to make some money, it's going to be a massive, massive weight off of your shoulders. And who knows? I mean, we've seen people change their lives in absolutely ridiculous amount of time. Right. I mean, within a year you could look back and you can look back and be like, wow, I was broke. I'm not broke anymore. Okay. So I might not work in art history.

Ryan Maruyama [00:42:36]:

It is what it is. I spent 8 years studying it and I love it. It's my passion. I love it, But I might not work in it. Because right now, I have to put my oxygen mask on. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I have to do it and then Go and do it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:42:48]:

Yeah. You're right. 1.76 k in student loans. That's probably a bachelor's and a master's or half of one or something like that. It's probably something specific, I would imagine. Probably something that doesn't pay very well, which is

Ryan Maruyama [00:42:59]:

why think it depends on how old you are as well. I I apologize for interrupting. It depends on how old You are as well because it could be interest that got you up there as well.

Hannah Maruyama [00:43:11]:

It could be. I'm taking context because because they're saying they can't get out of entry level jobs. So I'm assuming they're still in their twenties. I'm just gonna assume they're still in twenties, maybe early thirties. And the one thing I do wanna say is, like, nothing is permanent. So when I'm saying this, when I'm saying you have a $176,000 of student debt, What you need to do is cut bait immediately, and you need to find something high high profit. You need to find a high value skill, a high value job. And that is something that is going and I'm when I mean high value, I don't mean, like, high value, like, the way people say it on, you know, on social media now.

Hannah Maruyama [00:43:43]:

I mean, high value is in someone's gonna pay you a lot of money to do whatever it is, and you need to go do that until you pay off those loans. And then if you have something if that's in something like film or art history or whatever, now you can go back and you can work a job that just pays what you need to cover your bills. You don't have to make that amount of money anymore if that's not the goal for you. If your goal is to work comfortably in the field in which you bought your degrees, You can go back, but first, you have to figure out something valuable and then do it enough to make enough money to pay off your debt, and then you can go back to your field of study if you want to.

Ryan Maruyama [00:44:18]:

This reminds me of a story from a podcast guest, Zakia Accarelli. And I will link the episode where she tells her story

Hannah Maruyama [00:44:29]:

It's a good episode, guys.

Ryan Maruyama [00:44:30]:

Degreefree.c04/podcast. And this reminds me of her life. So it's been a while since I've heard it, and so I'm gonna mess it up a little bit. I definitely suggest you go back and Listen to it. So, Zakia, if I mess this up, I apologize. But what I think I remember of this was that she has 4 degrees, if I remember correctly, she has a bachelor's. She has 2 master's, and she has a PhD. And one of those degrees, I think her master's degree, was from an Ivy League School.

Ryan Maruyama [00:44:54]:

I forget.

Hannah Maruyama [00:44:55]:


Ryan Maruyama [00:44:56]:

Columbia. Sure. And that's it. It's definitely Columbia. And one of the things that I Was really blown away by her story was her ability to swallow The pride. And after she did all of this, she couldn't get a job. She couldn't get a job in her field of study, you know, as a professor. And she tells a story that she and, I think, her son, I think it was just 1 son, moved in to her mom's house Again, at, like, 30 years old or something like that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:45:28]:

Yeah. Like, moved back in with her mom. I think she was living in New York, and I think that her mom lived in, like, Georgia or something like that. And She had to move all the way back home because that's what it took. And she was willing to do what it takes

Hannah Maruyama [00:45:44]:

to dig herself out.

Ryan Maruyama [00:45:45]:


Hannah Maruyama [00:45:46]:


Ryan Maruyama [00:45:46]:

You know, I mean, single mom raising a son. Four degrees, highly educated, Highly educated.

Hannah Maruyama [00:45:54]:

She's actually educated though.

Ryan Maruyama [00:45:55]:

Highly papered Yeah. But willing to swallow the pride. And I'm gonna do whatever it takes.

Hannah Maruyama [00:46:02]:

Yeah. It's a great episode. If you have a lot of student debt, it's one I would highly recommend going to listen to because her thought process and then her methods for how she reexamine everything to get herself out of that situation are really, really actionable. And also as an aside, she just has one of the most beautiful voices I think I've ever heard in my life. She really does.

Ryan Maruyama [00:46:22]:

Yeah. It was a great episode. And, yeah, that's pretty much it for this episode. And I did wanna do a little bit reminder To call back to the beginning of this episode and degree free. If it suits you, if it makes sense in your everyday life, If you don't wanna use college dropout anymore, if you don't wanna start talking about that, you have a couple of options out there. Right? And language is really important. College breakout is 1, but then you can always just hold your head up high and just be like, I'm degree free. Don't let the college system And the college marketing be so effective that it rule the way that you speak in the way that you think about yourself, even though you didn't purchase from them.

Hannah Maruyama [00:47:02]:

Yeah. The academic industrial complex does not decide what our identities are.

Ryan Maruyama [00:47:08]:

Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's pretty much it for this week, guys. Until next time. Hello?

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