June 28, 2024

Companies Prefer Skills Over College Graduates and Why Your Degree Doesn’t Matter (DF#155)

Companies Prefer Skills Over College Graduates and Why Your Degree Doesn’t Matter

Removing Your College Degree from Your Resume

Join us for a thought-provoking episode where we challenge recent college graduates to rethink their job search strategy by removing their college degrees from their resumes and applying with their skills to see if they have the same difficulty in finding work.

What You’ll Learn:

- The shift in job requirements towards focusing on skills and potential rather than years of experience or education.
- The disconnect between job seekers and employers in the tough labor market, with some college graduates having high expectations without work experience.
- The suggestion to remove college degrees from resumes to increase chances of getting hired and focusing on what potential employers are looking for.
- Exploring whether a college degree is necessary for certain professions and considering alternative career pathways.
- The importance of skill and talent over traditional education in fields like cloud computing and debunking the misconception that all professions require a degree.

This episode challenges the traditional approach to job hunting and emphasizes the importance of skills and talents over degrees, offering valuable insights and anecdotes to inspire listeners to rethink their career paths.

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Enjoy the episode!

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Links and Notes from the Episode

Episode Summary:

In this episode, Hannah and Ryan Maruyama highlight the struggle recent college graduates face in finding employment due to a disconnect in expectations with employers. They mention a trend of focusing on skills and potential over years of experience or degree requirements.

The conversation emphasizes the importance of managing expectations during salary negotiations and the shift towards hiring high school graduates for job training programs. Removing college degrees from resumes and focusing on skills may increase job opportunities for graduates. A study found that removing the requirement of a college degree in job descriptions can reduce churn by 39% and increase access to potential candidates.

They discuss the importance of understanding legal requirements for different professions and advocate for exploring alternative pathways to certification. They also promote a book on the topic and encourage feedback from listeners.

Connect with Ryan:

Connect With Hannah:

Action Steps & Recommendations:

  • Remove the college degree from resumes and focus on highlighting skills and potential
  • Be customer-focused in job applications and interviews
  • Consider exploring alternative pathways to certification for high-demand careers
  • Seek opportunities for job training programs
  • Stay updated on legal requirements for different professions
  • Learn valuable skills through accessible resources such as online courses


  • 00:01:12 - Shift in employers towards skills-based hiring
  • 00:05:07 - Companies preferring high school graduates over college graduates
  • 00:07:03 - Issue of entitlement and unrealistic expectations among college graduates
  • 00:11:26 - Expectations and dissatisfaction with work
  • 00:12:11 - College degree bias in hiring
  • 00:20:03 - Degree Free job opportunities and changing job requirements
  • 00:00:00 - How to reduce churn by 39% and open up opportunities in the US job market
  • 00:02:13 - Clarifying the misconception that jobs don't necessarily require a degree but professions do
  • 00:06:23 - Debunking the need for a college degree in certain professions like surgical tech, health services administrator, and software engineering
  • 00:31:23 - Understanding the legal requirement breakdown for job licensing
  • 00:32:51 - Clarification on the differences between professions and jobs
  • 00:35:58 - Examples of design, teaching, and tech jobs that don't require a college degree
  • 00:42:06 - The hosts reflect on the episode
  • 00:42:28 - Hosts discuss the podcast production
  • 00:43:00 - Closing remarks and future episode teaser

References, Resources Mentioned & Suggested Reading:

Episode Transcript
Please enjoy this transcript or our episode!

Please note the transcript may have a few errors. We're human. It can be hard to catch all the errors from a full length conversation. Enjoy!

Hannah Maruyama [00:00:00]:
If you are a recent college graduate and you are having trouble finding work, you can't get people to call you back. You can't get people to hire you. I am going to give you a challenge. I want you to take your college degree off of your resume and apply like that. And tell me if you have the same problem, because I would bet money. So if you want to remove that bias from hiring, take your college degree off your resume and apply with your skills.

Ryan Maruyama [00:00:30]:
Aloha, folks, and welcome back to degree free. I'm Ryan. She's Hannah. We have a bunch of stuff to get into today. Let's dive right in.

Hannah Maruyama [00:00:39]:
Yeah. So today, we have degree free news. Degree free news. We'll see if this becomes a reoccurring segment on our podcast, but that's how I like to say it. So this news is that indeed found less than 1 third of job listings require years of experience. This comes to us courtesy of the fact that I cannot scroll past 4 videos on TikTok without seeing people talking about how every job that they're applying to requires 5 years of experience and a master's degree. But the data is not showing that at all. So this is actually what the article says.

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:12]:
It's a summary of this Indeed study and the findings that they have. So Indeed job posting data shows that mentions of experience requirements and job ads have declined in recent years. Likely due to a shift in employers who want to hire and grow support for skills first hiring. And this is a big buzzword right now, right? The skills first, skills based, and really what it just means is hire people that you can teach how to do things. Sometimes they're not even hiring for skill. They're hiring for potential and attitude to learn skill at this point. Stahl wrote, that's the person who did this round up on the study. Let's focus on tenure in addition to a long term decline in educational requirements.

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:47]:
Degree requirements, may give job seekers with the right skills a chance to pursue opportunities that may have previously been closed to them. But what I see with this is actually not even just with the right skills, but with the right attitude and the right potential. And that's something I'm seeing in the launch program, which I'll get into later in this episode. In addition to this decline in requirements for experience, employers are also when they do require it are reducing the amount of years required to be more realistic. So since April 2023, the share of job postings that didn't include any requirements or explicitly asked for applicants with no experience rose from 60 to 70%. But just to give context, that means that even last year, it was still more than half. So some job postings will still ask for a certain type of experience. So if you're a nurse or something like that, they're still going to want you to have experience obviously, but now they are saying preferred and they're also reducing the amount of years that they are quoting because it's tough out there.

Hannah Maruyama [00:02:45]:
So this article attributes a lot of different factors, but the main thing is a tough labor market for employers, even though a lot of people don't think that it is, it actually is hard to find people that are good to hire. And employers are saying that it's so interesting to watch the disconnect between these college grads saying no one's hiring them and employer saying no 1 that's applying are good applicants. And I believe that it's because of a giant disconnect and expectations. And I guess this is hard because you want people to talk and it's good to see people's perspective and share about what's going on. But when I see these videos of people on TikTok complaining specifically of college graduates, multiple degrees, this is the criteria I've seen like 6 of these videos have gone super viral and they're just complaining and they're complaining. And sometimes they talk about the specific company and always when you listen to the full story, sometimes it'll be the 10 minute long story. And I listened because I want to hear what's going on, what they're doing, and then what reaction that's getting as they're applying for jobs. And it does seem to me, they go into it with the wrong mindset because they think that they're owed a certain level of job.

Hannah Maruyama [00:03:48]:
And I think that that's tough because they're trying to get their first jobs. And again, that's fine if you don't have experience, but they don't have any work experience. It's not having no experience in a field. They have 0 work experience. They went straight from high school to college. They get out their mid twenties and they have high expectations and literally have not even worked at Chick Fil A have not even worked at Home Depot have never worked a day in their life. And then they get upset because they bought 3 college degrees before they got an entry level job. And no 1 wants to hire them because they're a flight risk, because they know they're going to hire them and they're going to be disenchanted with an entry level job.

Hannah Maruyama [00:04:23]:
And I think that that's really what's going on. So I think what's happening is this is what I predicted several years ago now, which is that companies were going to start to go around college graduates. And that is what I see happening here. I just spoke to a parent about this who said that Tesla is paying 100 of 1,000 of dollars to local high schools in the Austin and basically in the TexPlex Triangle to source tool and die makers into different programs. And they're starting wage after they graduate from these on the job training programs after high school is going to be $120,000 and they are not offering those jobs. You'll notice to college graduates. They want them right out of high school. And the reason they want them right out of high school is because they don't want them 24 years old and expecting the world when they have literally no work experience.

Hannah Maruyama [00:05:14]:
So the high schoolers are better because they're excited to learn and do work.

Ryan Maruyama [00:05:18]:
The last point that you just made, we talked about this months ago. I have a friend that's in HR and she was going to college job fair day. And before she left for it, she was complaining. She was like, I gotta go to this thing. We're not gonna hire any of these guys. She was like, we're not gonna hire any of these people. And, yeah, I had I was like, that's crazy. I was like, why are you going? Oh, just so to make it look like we are, basically, to have our company in the top of minds of people and that would do good in the community and whatever.

Ryan Maruyama [00:05:46]:
And then this is another auto industry company, really, where our initiative is high schools. They're like, we had an alpha, basically. We had to had like a, a trial with this 1 high school of training their techs, basically on how to do things. And they were like, the results have been much better. And a lot of people might say like they're cheaper. Well, that might be true, but don't you think just from an efficiency standpoint, like if the college graduates from a business standpoint, like if they were able to get up to speed and start contributing in a major way, faster, quicker in a more measurable way, wouldn't you hire that person from a business perspective? That'd be easy. Yeah. That's an easy hire all day.

Ryan Maruyama [00:06:29]:
If you can make the case to me that I'm going to spend more money, but this person is going to make me more money. Yeah, of course. Where did we find that person? Give me 10 more of that person, but they're not finding that. And because they're not bringing that economic value and with it, they're also bringing all of their baggage, that sense of entitlement that you're talking about, basically. I mean, I'm putting words in your mouth there, but a sense of entitlement that you're talking about and then their student debt. I'm not casting shade on anybody about this. Like, this is me. This is my story.

Ryan Maruyama [00:06:58]:
This is what I went through. I brought that sense of entitlement to to my to my negotiations.

Hannah Maruyama [00:07:09]:
Well, I've been I've been a lot of money for this degree. I spent a lot don't care.

Ryan Maruyama [00:07:14]:
This is

Hannah Maruyama [00:07:14]:
still the wage.

Ryan Maruyama [00:07:15]:
I know. I got laughed at.

Hannah Maruyama [00:07:16]:
That's nice. This is what we're paying.

Ryan Maruyama [00:07:18]:
I've said this story so many times this podcast for those people that are new. Like it was actually my second negotiation. My first negotiation out of college, I just took the job because I just needed a job. That's where I was on my journey. I was working as a bartender at night, and then I was like, okay. Well, this job is paying really, really crappy, but it's my foot in the door. And I was like, I gotta do what I gotta do. And it was like 11:50 an hour I was making or something.

Ryan Maruyama [00:07:45]:
I was like, okay. Well, I take that job. And then I got another job or at least a and I was at the negotiation table with them. And so I'm thinking, I'm like, I'm going to swing for the fences. I'm going to go for it. I'm going to ask for the world. When we got to the negotiation part of it and they're like, oh, so what are you thinking for this job? I was like, what do you think your rate's going to be? I was like, after doing my research and I think the value that I bring and the, where the market's at right now, dollars 37,000 a year is, is fair. And I'm thinking like, that's fucking, that's a great number, bro.

Ryan Maruyama [00:08:15]:
A 100% they're gonna give it to me. And she just laughs.

Hannah Maruyama [00:08:25]:
Okay. Every time you tell this story, I just imagine her just going, wow. That book that I read on negotiation really just paid off. Yeah. You know?

Ryan Maruyama [00:08:34]:
House 31. I was like, well, it sounds better than 11:50, I guess, or whatever. I was making 10:50. Yeah. Somebody mapped that out. I'm pretty sure it's 31,000. It's still more than 11:50 an hour. I'm pretty sure I think it was, like, 7 hours a day.

Ryan Maruyama [00:08:49]:
I was working hourly even though it was, like, a full time job and stuff. I was working hourly. It was an 8 hour shift, and I think I had an hour for lunch. So like, only 7 hours a day. So it's 35 hours a week times 11:50 or whatever. But then this other job was salary.

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:03]:

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:03]:
Yeah. Salary. I mean, it's definitely salary. Yeah. It ended up being that I ended up working more than 40 hours a week. There is like an argument for basically nobody should be salary or at least like not until you reach a certain level of compensation. And regardless of that, maybe that level is not even just monetary. You can be making $200,000 a year, but if you don't have like a piece of the company or something like that, or if you don't have a revenue share or something like that, then you should still be hourly.

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:32]:
That's 1 of many arguments. But anyway, so shocker. Right? 31,000, not too often, but it never had less than 40 hours, if that makes sense. So we didn't have to work more than 40 hours much, but

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:45]:
sometimes you did.

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:46]:
Yeah, But sometimes we did, and we never worked less. Like, they never said, hey, guys. Let's let's get out of here. Oh. Yeah. That's nice. It's Friday at 3:30. Let's get out of here.

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:56]:
You know? Like, that never happened

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:58]:
ever. Fridays?

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:59]:
Never happened.

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:00]:
The world.

Ryan Maruyama [00:10:01]:
Yeah. But anyway, so I'm not casting shade on anybody for this. Like that was my journey and going into it. And I wouldn't want to hire me with all those expectations. I literally had all of these expectations and it was those expectations that led me to dissatisfaction, which is pretty much the case for anything. Why are you ever dissatisfied with a product that you buy?

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:24]:
Your expectations were wrong.

Ryan Maruyama [00:10:25]:
Yeah. Your expectations weren't met. You buy a sponge thinking that it's gonna last you 3 months or I don't know. However you know what I mean?

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:33]:
Be screaming in the comments.

Ryan Maruyama [00:10:35]:
You buy soda in 3 months. I don't know if it's a car wash bunch or whatever. But you know what I mean? I'm just, like, saying. So you're buying a sponge and you think it's gonna last you 3 months And then you're like, that is a long time for a sponge. Yeah.

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:46]:
That's disgusting. We don't do that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:10:47]:
We don't do that. Don't I

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:48]:
don't want people to think But

Ryan Maruyama [00:10:49]:
you can't. You can't

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:50]:
use everybody's house.

Ryan Maruyama [00:10:53]:
You buy a sponge. Anything is gonna last you for a week, and it deteriorates the first time you use it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:59]:
Right. You'd be pissed.

Ryan Maruyama [00:10:59]:
See now, like, a week now. Like, now or do we got crazy sponge money? We got that Scotch Brite money.

Hannah Maruyama [00:11:06]:
Woah. Woah. What are we the wrong colors over here? Jeez.

Ryan Maruyama [00:11:09]:
It's that expectations and those expectations not being met that makes it difficult. And it makes you dissatisfied with whatever it is. And then with work, if you're dissatisfied in your work, then you also

Hannah Maruyama [00:11:20]:
reflects in your work usually.

Ryan Maruyama [00:11:21]:
Usually reflects in your work.

Hannah Maruyama [00:11:22]:
And it can affect the morale of an entire team. If you're a complainer, which obviously the people that I'm seeing are complainers. There's a bunch of things here, and this is kind of an offshoot, but it's hard not to see how the businesses that didn't hire these people didn't make the right choice Because they're screening them out because they think, oh, they're recent college graduates. They're gonna be entitled. And then they get on TikTok and they confirm exactly what the business was worried about. And I just go, you're kind of just proving their point. Cause I haven't seen anybody who just graduated high school complaining about that. Nobody, not a single 1.

Hannah Maruyama [00:11:52]:
It's only college graduates with 1 or 2. I've noticed 4 degrees for whatever reason that is. And they really struggle. So a couple of things, if you are a recent college graduate and you are having trouble finding work, you can't get people to call you back. You can't get people to hire you. I am going to give you a challenge. I want you to take your college degree off of your resume and apply like that. And tell me if you have the same problem, because I would bet money.

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:21]:
What is going on is businesses. And when I say the word entitled, I don't mean entitled. Like I think you're entitled. Those are the words used in studies of surveys of employers. Employers think you are entitled. So if you want to remove that bias from hiring, take your college degree off your resume and apply with your skills. If you have no skills other than your college degree, there's your problem right there. But if you do have skills, then your college degree might be literally actively keeping you from being hired.

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:47]:
The easiest way to find out if I'm wrong, take it off and apply. And if you won't do that because you think, oh my gosh, that's ridiculous. Okay. Well, you can literally test me and I'm willing to put money on the fact that you're going to get calls back. I'm not kidding.

Ryan Maruyama [00:13:01]:
Hey there. I hope you're enjoying this episode of the degree free podcast. At degree free, we want to help everyone thrive and succeed without needing a college degree. And the only way to truly reach everyone is with your help. If you're getting value out of this episode or if this is your second, 3rd, or 4th episode that you're tuning into, if you could just ship this to a friend, just click that 1 button and share it with someone in your contacts or on your stories. It would mean the world to us. And more importantly, get our message out to more people who need help getting out of their current situation. If you could do that right now, that would mean a whole lot.

Ryan Maruyama [00:13:38]:
I think that's a great test. Whether or not you do it or not, I'm not sure, but that's a good test. And we talk about this many times before on the podcast. If you are applying to jobs, and this is for anybody at any age range from 16 years old all the way to your last job before you retire, If you are applying to jobs and you keep applying and you keep applying and you keep applying and you're not getting through the door and you're not getting hired. Okay. Well, something has to change. You have to change something. What you change just depends on where you're stuck.

Ryan Maruyama [00:14:11]:
So if you are stuck in the hiring process where you're not getting any interviews, well, then you have to change all of your job search materials because they haven't met you yet, but they literally haven't met you. So you don't have to worry about your interview. You don't have to worry about negotiating. Those are all like past that. So you just really have to worry about the job search materials. And then the stuff that happens before the job search materials, which is your online presence, your networking, you're reaching out, those types of things. Yes. As a test, I think that that's a good idea.

Ryan Maruyama [00:14:41]:
Just go ahead, remove it, test it. But I will be the quote voice of reason or I'll backpedal a little bit on that. I think that you should be testing everything. Yes. College degree is a good test, but then you could also test different types of resumes. You could also test whatever you have on your resume right now, take it all off and put something else on. If you don't have any different jobs that you can put on there, then put different skills that you used at these jobs or change the order of the bullet point, something like that. And so, yes, as 1 of these tests out of thousands of tests that you could do, that is 1 of the tests that you could do.

Ryan Maruyama [00:15:19]:
I wanted to walk a little bit back to the very beginning you were talking about these college graduates applying without a job. They've never worked a job ever before in their lives. And that's what you think. And And then they're not getting hired because they have no experience because they haven't worked a job. I don't know if that's true. I have no idea, But even if you do have a job and you're working in college, what we've found is that it's difficult to talk about your experience and what you've done in your life and make that connect to the other job. You might have job experience. You might be like me.

Ryan Maruyama [00:15:56]:
You might have worked in restaurants for 8 years or whatever, however long it was, 5, 6 years before I ended up getting a, quote, big boy job that I ended up putting because it sucked.

Hannah Maruyama [00:16:09]:
Way to be part of the stat.

Ryan Maruyama [00:16:10]:
I never wanna go up. I I wasn't ready to be a big boy.

Hannah Maruyama [00:16:17]:
Oh man.

Ryan Maruyama [00:16:18]:
If you were like me and you did work, I worked full time all the way throughout college, but I still had a very difficult time because I didn't know how to be a job seeker. And I didn't know how to be focused on what they care about. I was just thinking about me always in the

Hannah Maruyama [00:16:36]:
process. I think a lot of job seekers struggle with that specifically college graduates, because they don't teach them how to be focused on the benefit for the person trying to hire you. It's all about yeah. Exactly what you said. Me, me, me. What do I want? How do I feel? I think that that translates a lot in interviews. I think it becomes very self focused because I think a lot of the way colleges teach now is very self focused and very me and Mary this, and it's not very, Hey, what do you need? What can I do that's of value that's of use? And that's a value and of use to a team. And where do I fit there? And how can you picture me with this group of people?

Ryan Maruyama [00:17:06]:
I agree with that sentiment. I agree with what you said, but I would add that getting work, going to college as 1 thing that in and of itself is incredibly selfish. Like there's no reason to go to college other than you think that you're going to better yourself in some way, you think that like that's the place to get educated. That's a place where you could get a piece of paper. You buy a piece of paper to go get a job and then make more money. It is an incredibly selfish endeavor to go to college. It just is. It's also an incredibly selfish endeavor to get a job.

Ryan Maruyama [00:17:39]:
And that's where this is like completely opposed completely. You have to do the song and dance with the person sitting across the table from you or the person that's reviewing the application. And you have to be like, oh, I care so much about your company, whatever whatever when You

Hannah Maruyama [00:17:53]:
really only care about yourself. That's why you're working.

Ryan Maruyama [00:17:55]:
Exactly. Like, man, I am just sick of eating Top Ramen for the past 60 days, I'm just ready to get off of it. I'm I'm ready for a McChicken. Yeah. You know?

Hannah Maruyama [00:18:04]:
I'm ready for a McChicken. Let's go. Let's stop. Let's go.

Ryan Maruyama [00:18:07]:
I hear what you're saying about college is not teaching that because that's just the reality of the situation of work.

Hannah Maruyama [00:18:14]:
I think that it's the extension of that. So they go to college and then a lot of these, I think what's happening is I think they're dating them. I think too, this is something for college graduates. If again, if you're struggling with this, because I think a lot of them are, if you are putting on your resume, when you graduate, you should wipe that for sure. Don't put your graduation year on your resume. If you do have a degree. And then the other thing you should test is removing it entirely. But the reason is because you don't want them to know that you didn't just come out from doing something else.

Hannah Maruyama [00:18:45]:
And now you're just looking for a job. What I think that people should test that and see if that's effective. Cause I think they're dating them. They're saying, Oh, they're a 24 year old college graduate with no work experience. No, think that's what's happening. And so in order to get around that, especially in that 24 to 26, they're literally going, a 25 year old, 26 year old with no formal work experience. No, absolutely not. I'd rather take a 19 year old whose work at Lowe's.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:08]:
And I really do think that's what's going on.

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:10]:
Just as a closing point, before we get into some of the other things that we wanted to talk about, indeed is just showing data that happened in the past. This is all in retrospect, but this is happening now. People are down credentialing their jobs and they are accepting degree free people into it. And like, they've always been doing it though.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:30]:
But now they're just publicly doing it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:31]:
Always been doing it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:32]:
And then they're like, Hey, we should probably advertise that we're doing that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:35]:
Exactly. It's the way to get more candidates because it is it's, it's a literally you college degree required 3 words on a job listing. If you just click the backspace, however many times that is, and then you just boom done. You've just opened up the amount of people that can work at your company that are explicitly now welcome into your company in those jobs by a lot, like 2 thirds of the American population are degree free.

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:05]:
Majority have always been degree free.

Ryan Maruyama [00:20:08]:
They're now just saying, even if they were doing it already, they were doing it all.

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:12]:
They all were.

Ryan Maruyama [00:20:12]:
Yes. But now they're just opening it up. It's like, well, oh wow. The candidates are better. They churn less. They ended up being more productive. Yeah. Let's open this up.

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:21]:
This calls back to that Harvard Business Review study, the dismissed by degrees, where they did find that they found companies. If you want to reduce your churn by 39% and you want to open up your access to 2 thirds of the available, employable adults in the US remove 3 words, college degree required. That's it. That's all you have to do. When your HR people copy and paste the job description for whatever role that you've been using for 10, 15 years, just remove that line. Yeah. Just remove that line. I don't care if your HR person has a master's degree in whatever, just tell them to remove it and then not to discriminate in hiring based on that.

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:55]:
It's so easy. Look at that. It reduced churn by 39%. They perform the exact same. That is what the study found.

Ryan Maruyama [00:21:01]:
Okay. So I wanted to move on. I'll read this TikTok comment and then you can give your thoughts.

Hannah Maruyama [00:21:07]:
Could I tell you what the TikTok was about

Ryan Maruyama [00:21:10]:
first so

Hannah Maruyama [00:21:10]:
the audience knows? Sure. So basically I made a highly controversial video where I said, if a job doesn't legally require a degree to get it, then you do not need a degree to get it. Woah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:21:22]:
Yeah. More controversial than we thought it would be. So this is a comment on it. Anything medical, all engineering routes, architecture and design, education, tech, and IT jobs don't necessarily require degree, but professions do.

Hannah Maruyama [00:21:37]:
I I think I responded to this comment and said, there's so much wrong with this, that we have to take it to a podcast episode. So we did. Yeah. So we literally just wrote the book. Ryan and I just wrote the book on how exactly to figure this out. So that's why I felt like this would be a really good exercise.

Ryan Maruyama [00:21:56]:
1, before we get into that, I did want to just cut in here and say jobs don't necessarily require a degree, but professions do. No. That is backwards. I don't know what that means. Like, I'm not smart enough to understand what that means.

Hannah Maruyama [00:22:08]:
It means that this commenter believes that there are gates up around certain professions in entirety. Yes. So he's

Ryan Maruyama [00:22:16]:
saying jobs aren't professions and professions aren't jobs. Correct.

Hannah Maruyama [00:22:19]:
That they're 2 different things.

Ryan Maruyama [00:22:20]:
Yeah. They're like, doesn't make any sense. Right.

Hannah Maruyama [00:22:22]:
Like a job is not a job.

Ryan Maruyama [00:22:23]:
Am I wrong here? I just feel like job is a profession and oppression is a job.

Hannah Maruyama [00:22:28]:
Well, no, I think so there can be different jobs within professions. That's how I understand.

Ryan Maruyama [00:22:32]:
Okay. I hear what you're saying. Yeah. But jobs don't necessarily require a degree of professions. Do.

Hannah Maruyama [00:22:38]:
So think of jobs like shades of colors. So you may have different shades of purple and then there's purple. And they're what they're saying is that different shades of purple don't necessarily require degree, but professions do, which doesn't make any sense. It doesn't

Ryan Maruyama [00:22:51]:
make any sense.

Hannah Maruyama [00:22:51]:
If some

Ryan Maruyama [00:22:52]:
of them I disagree. I mean, I hear what you're saying. I understand what you're saying. I just disagree.

Hannah Maruyama [00:22:57]:
I disagree. This doesn't make sense.

Ryan Maruyama [00:22:59]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm just, I'm disagreeing. I'm not saying that you're saying it. I'm saying that you are trying to help this person clarify their point.

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:05]:

Ryan Maruyama [00:23:06]:
And the clarification that you're making, I disagree with.

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:09]:
How do you disagree with it?

Ryan Maruyama [00:23:10]:
I think that jobs equal professions and professionals equals jobs.

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:12]:
No. So what about a corner in 1 state is corner may require a degree, but in another state, the corner does not. So same profession, but different jobs.

Ryan Maruyama [00:23:24]:
We're now we're just talking about how to get those jobs. Now we're just talking about like the intricacies of how to get those jobs.

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:31]:
Yeah, but they may be different classifications of jobs or different types of jobs.

Ryan Maruyama [00:23:35]:
Yeah. So then you say the corner profession and then the morgue profession. I don't know. I don't understand. I literally don't understand. It's like the fast food profession and the fast food profession. Like the fast food job in a fast food profession. It's the

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:45]:
same thing. I think that they meant it the way I was explaining it. But I see what you are saying now that

Ryan Maruyama [00:23:50]:
you've explained it. Jobs equals professions. Professions equals jobs. Right? Like I don't I need to go get

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:54]:
a dictionary after this and check.

Ryan Maruyama [00:23:56]:

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:56]:
But I think you I suspect that now that you've broken that down, that you may be correct.

Ryan Maruyama [00:24:00]:
Go ahead.

Hannah Maruyama [00:24:01]:
Anyway, I got us some example jobs to run through the legal requirement breakdown in real time in real life.

Ryan Maruyama [00:24:10]:
Yeah. And so this is a section of the degree free way that you can get at degreefree.coforward/book, how to help your 60 to 20 year old build the life they want. You can go there and you can order the book. By the time that this comes out, I think it'll still be on pre order. I'm not sure. Once again, you can even listen to the last episode about how we disagreed on how we were going to launch this thing. So I don't know when we're gonna launch it. If I had my way, it would have been next year, but it's probably sometime in the next couple of weeks.

Ryan Maruyama [00:24:39]:
If you want to, it's on sale. It's not just for sale. It's on sale for preorder. When it launches, it'll be in the $60 range or so, and I think it's, like, $40 right now. So if you want to save a little bit of money and you're dealing with this stuff with your 16 to 20 year old, go ahead. Degreefree.co/book.

Hannah Maruyama [00:24:56]:
So we're gonna run these through the legal requirement breakdown in real time and figure out if these jobs do or do not require a college degree. Let's start with this comment again. Anything medical, all engineering routes, architecture and design, education, tech, and IT. So, I found 4 medical jobs that I would like to go over and we will run them through this breakdown. But surgical tech, does a surgical tech legally require a license to do? Sometimes in some states it does. Does that license legally require them to purchase a college degree in order to get it? Sometimes it depends on the state. So do you need a college degree to become a surgical tech? No, you do not. Because you could go to a state where you are allowed to train on the job as a surgical tech and then receive your license.

Hannah Maruyama [00:25:39]:
Because the license does not require a degree in order to obtain it. So surgical tech does not require a degree. Health services administrator. Does a health services administrator require a legal license to do? No, it does not. Does a health services administrator require a degree in order to get that license? No, it does not because it meets neither of those criteria. A health service administrator does not have to purchase a college degree in order to be a health services administrator. Do you need a degree to become an LPN or LVN? No, you do not. You can become an LVN or an LPN through an MA Bridge program and LPNs are all states except for What

Ryan Maruyama [00:26:18]:
is an LPN?

Hannah Maruyama [00:26:19]:
An LPN is a licensed practical nurse and an LPN is a licensed vocational nurse. The only difference really between these 2 is that LVNs are only present in Texas and California. They are essentially the same job. They just have different designations. So in order to become an LVN or an LPN, there is a bridge program from being a CNA or a medical assistant, and you can get those by going through a pharmacological program that will test you on different medicines and stuff like that. And then you have to show proof of a certain amount of hours in order to apply to get your license through experience, which you can do. Now, orthopedic brace and limb technician. Is this something you need a license to do? No, you do not need a license to be an orthopedic brace and limb technician.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:01]:
This is largely on the job training, actually. Do you need a degree to get a license to do this job? No, you do not. Therefore you do not need a college degree to be an orthopedic brace and limb technician. That means that in our medical category, just off the top of my head, surgical tech, health services administrator, LPN or LVNs, and orthopedic brace and limb technicians do not require college degrees to be them. And then you folks know, but I'm big on the fact that 28 states allow midwifery to be practiced by certified professional midwives in those states. And you do not need a college degree to do that either. It's a school that you attend, then you apprentice, and then you take a test and you are granted your license by the state that you live in. Now let's do engineering because this one's such low hanging fruit.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:39]:
Do you need a license to be a software engineer? No. No, you do not. Do you need a degree to get legally a license to become a software engineer? No. Okay. You do not need to buy a college degree in order to become a software engineer. Do you need a license to be a professional engineer? Yes. Okay. You need a license to be a professional engineer in all states.

Hannah Maruyama [00:28:01]:
In California, Washington, Nevada, Maine, and New Hampshire. You can obtain this license through experience and taking an examination. So do you need a degree in order to get the license to practice as a professional engineer in California, Washington, Nevada, Maine, or New Hampshire? No. You do need a license to become a professional engineer in California, Washington, Nevada, Maine, and New Hampshire, but you do not need to buy a college degree in order to become an, a licensed engineer in those states. So there goes that 1. Architecture. All right. This is 1 of my favorite ones to debunk because I did a deep dive on the NCARB a while back.

Hannah Maruyama [00:28:35]:
And this was just something that I feel like is important for people to know because this is so often that gets put on the list. 1, I think the glamorization of architecture is kind of interesting because it's a very high cost, high risk degree that oftentimes does not help the people who get it. And they spend 8 years, 10 years getting an architecture degree, and then they have trouble making their money back. But anyway, that's a whole other thing. So architects, do you need a license to be an architect?

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:00]:

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:01]:
Yes, you do. Do you need to buy a college degree to get an architecture license?

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:06]:
Depends on where you are.

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:07]:
Exactly. So you do in fact need a license to be an architect. You do not need to buy a college degree to become an architect. Hawaii, Colorado, Washington state, Arizona, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and New York all have alternative pathways. The pathway is called the 2 XP and it's 2 times experience. You submit a portfolio of work. You show that you have 2 times experience working under a licensed architect and you submit to the NCARB. And that is how you get licensed.

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:29]:
Also, this is just patently silly because if you ask most Americans name an architect and they like go to your head, name an architect, they're going to say Frank Lloyd Wright. And Frank Lloyd Wright was degree free. And that was arguably like the greatest, most well known household name architect of the last 100 years. All right. Other ones that go fall under architecture would be BIM that's building information modeling and that's management coordination, all of those different types of things. Does building information modeling require a license to do? Yes, it does. Does building information modeling require a college degree in order to get that license? No, it does not. Does architectural drafting require a license to do? No.

Hannah Maruyama [00:30:06]:
No, it does not. Does CAD require a license to do? No, it does not. Okay. That's fun. Another 1 that was apparently really inflammatory, but does interior design require a license to do? Yes, it does.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:18]:
And I just want to jump in here right before we get to the last 1, because you've been going for a little bit, give you a little bit of a break to back all the way up. The legal requirement breakdown, and we give this to you in the book here, but I'll give it to you right here. It's fine. It's just 2 questions. It's does this job require a license to legally do it? Yes or no. And then if no, then we're good. Okay. You're not, you don't need to agree for that done.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:42]:
If yes, then move to the second question. The second question is, does that license legally require a degree to get that license? That's it. And then if that's yes, then okay, well then you need to get a license that is barred by a degree that is gated by a degree. So you have to get that degree to get that license, to go do that job. If the answer is no, well then you don't have to get that degree. There are other ways to get there. And when you examine the other ways to get there, that's when you have to decide, is it easier? Is it faster? Does it make more sense for you personally to just get the degree anyway, because it's going to get you to whatever minimum requirement there is quicker. That is the legal requirement breakdown.

Ryan Maruyama [00:31:28]:
And maybe we should have went over that first to give everybody a little bit of heads up, but that's basically what you just did for all of those jobs there. I wanted to jump in a second because while you've been doing that, I was googling the difference between professions and jobs. We were both right or this person was right and I was right at the same time. The number 1 definition for a profession is an occupation or career. And so I think the way that you defended this person and the way that you also thought of it as well, is that these are like industries, which is erroneous. So the second most common definition is an occupation. So the first 1 is an occupation or career, which that's a job. Because then you go to the definition of job.

Ryan Maruyama [00:32:09]:
It is a regular activity performed in exchange for payment, especially as one's trade occupation or profession.

Hannah Maruyama [00:32:17]:
Oh, okay.

Ryan Maruyama [00:32:17]:
Yeah. That's why this doesn't make sense. Like jobs don't necessarily require a degree, but professions do what you're saying.

Hannah Maruyama [00:32:22]:
Jobs don't require jobs

Ryan Maruyama [00:32:24]:
don't necessarily require a degree, but jobs do. That's what he's saying. Professions don't necessarily require a degree, but professions do.

Hannah Maruyama [00:32:30]:

Ryan Maruyama [00:32:31]:
So it doesn't make any sense. You know what I mean? And so that's where it got me.

Hannah Maruyama [00:32:34]:
And so

Ryan Maruyama [00:32:34]:
I had to go down that rabbit hole. What this person was saying is that these industries require degrees. Yes. But the second definition of profession. So I wanted to just close that up is an occupation such as law, medicine, or engineering that requires considerable training and specialized study. But that's the second definition, not the first. So we're both right. Yeah.

Hannah Maruyama [00:32:56]:
I see why that stopped you and you had to figure it out.

Ryan Maruyama [00:32:59]:
Yeah, totally. Cause he's basically saying he's, it just doesn't add up.

Hannah Maruyama [00:33:02]:
It's the same thing. Yeah. Okay.

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:03]:
That was

Hannah Maruyama [00:33:03]:
a good little aside there.

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:05]:
And then the last thing I wanted to say before we jump back in here is that when we talked about the legal requirement breakdown before, if you know of any jobs out there that legally require just a degree, just a degree, let us know. YouTube comments, Spotify, let us know. Tag us on TikTok.

Hannah Maruyama [00:33:21]:
Obscure like government medical or bio research jobs are the only ones that come to mind. If you know any of those specific job titles, give us those.

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:29]:
That works too. Yeah. Sure. Literally anyone in the wool vet whether or not it does.

Hannah Maruyama [00:33:33]:
Yeah. And if you're just curious, tell us and we'll find out.

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:36]:
For us, It was government jobs. Government jobs are the ones that legally require college degrees and that's in capsulating the military as well. Oh, last thing I will say, I promise before you can go on, if this sounds like a little over people's head here, and they're like, what, how are you guys doing this? Like, how do you know all this? Like, this is literally what we do for a living.

Hannah Maruyama [00:33:57]:
Yes. It's our job to know all of the jobs.

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:01]:
Yeah. And to how to get them. Yeah. I mean, if this is, like, all over your head, I would be surprised if this wasn't over your head.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:07]:
I had, someone I'm working with in the launch program the other day tell me I was a human Zello, which is really funny because that's the software now that has just recently been licensed to all the schools. And I said, dude, I know way more jobs than Zello. It's only at 642.

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:21]:
And you're more accurate too.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:22]:
Yeah. I am.

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:23]:
Without, without the degree bias.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:24]:
I would say Zello is still like, Oh, you want to be a graphic designer? Okay. You need to buy a college degree. No, you don't. So speaking of which, another 1 of these sub headings here is design, which my point here is that's so silly because Steve Jobs was arguably the greatest designer of our time that people could think of and design jobs that don't require college degrees, parametric creo, which is a type of architectural design software, product designers, prototype fabricators, education. That's 1 you can't work in education unless you have a college degree is my personal pet peeve. It just yanks my chain. We're educating people right now. This individual, I believe means public school teachers specifically, which are not all teachers.

Hannah Maruyama [00:35:04]:
I just can't. It just drives me up the wall. Teacher, you can teach in a private school or you can teach in a public school if they need you badly enough to ignore their union regulations. Oops. That's what's really going on. Professor, you don't need a college degree to teach at a college. There have been professors that teach at colleges because they're actually, shocker, good at their job. Adjunct professors, professors of practice, etcetera.

Hannah Maruyama [00:35:26]:
Tutor. This one's really obvious. If you're just good at tutoring basic academic skills and you tutor people in basic academic skills, you don't need a college degree to do that. You need to be good at teaching concepts. Expert instructor. And this is just to be good at something. Literally to be good at something period, and then teach it to other people. Marie Kondo is a great example of an educator, of a teacher who teaches a concept very well, very simply, very consumably, so other people can replicate her results.

Hannah Maruyama [00:35:54]:
That is what teaching

Ryan Maruyama [00:35:55]:
is. Marie Kondo for those people listening are, is the lady that was, does this make you feel joy? Yes. She's the tidying up.

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:05]:
That would be racist if you weren't Japanese.

Ryan Maruyama [00:36:07]:
That was not a race thing at all. That's like

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:09]:
You did your

Ryan Maruyama [00:36:10]:
hands like this. That wasn't a race thing. She's just

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:13]:
Does she do that?

Ryan Maruyama [00:36:15]:
No. I mean, she's not.

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:19]:
Oh, right. Well, I feel pretty smug right now. I'm not gonna lie. And I do. Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:36:25]:
She just wants to have

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:26]:
a good grain of rice? What are you doing?

Ryan Maruyama [00:36:28]:
No. I mean, just like anyway.

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:31]:
Anyway, tech and IT. And I've just wrote next to this 1, literally Sam Altman, who for those of you who don't know is the CEO of OpenAI. And then I have 2 examples closer to home, software developers, Garrett Graves and Sean Dubois who have both been on our podcast. Garrett Graves was a software developer at Twitch. He now has his own company. Sean Dubois worked at AWS and what were the other ones? Twitch, Apple. All the big boys. Airbnb? No.

Hannah Maruyama [00:37:01]:

Ryan Maruyama [00:37:02]:
Etsy. Etsy.

Hannah Maruyama [00:37:02]:
Etsy. There we go. Etsy, not Yelp. That's good because Yelp's the worst.

Ryan Maruyama [00:37:06]:
He works somewhere else now.

Hannah Maruyama [00:37:07]:
So anyway, all the big boys and then product manager, our friend of the pod, Drake Porter at Metta. And I wanted to go through these because this really illustrates, especially to parents listening, who feel like their children are really limited to go into these types of fields, skill and talent will always win. Always. They just will. And these jobs that is named are good examples of that. And then I have a story about this actually, because it was interesting. I was just talking to 1 of the girls who just finished the launch program and she ended up actually having cloud computing as her top result. Cloud computing specialist was her top result that she got.

Hannah Maruyama [00:37:46]:
And it's crazy because of all of the jobs we started with on her vocational creativity list, I was surprised that that 1 made it to the end because she had never heard of it before. But it made cut after cut, after cut, and it got to the end and it was her top choice when she had never heard of that before in her life. And then when I was walking her through how to apply and explaining like, here are the example job listings. When you're done learning your skills, this is what you're looking for. And she just said, oh, well, you know, they do say on their degree requirements. And I just said, you ignore those. You ignore degree and experience requirements always. And it's funny because you and I have been saying that for literally years.

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:18]:
And look at the data that we just talked about at the beginning, showing that that was the right move all along.

Ryan Maruyama [00:38:24]:
It's just logic too, when you're actually applying to the jobs. You can't get

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:27]:
it if you don't apply.

Ryan Maruyama [00:38:28]:
Can't get it if you don't apply to the job. You miss a 100% of the shots you don't take.

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:34]:
Wayne Gretzky and Michael Scott Ryan Mariama.

Ryan Maruyama [00:38:36]:
Yeah. Exactly.

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:37]:
And so, yeah, I just wanted to point that out though, too. Cause it was so interesting. Cause that came up and parents, this is good for you. If you're trying to help your child get into something that you think is locked up behind a college degree, check this out. Because she narrowed it down to this cloud computing, which she'd never heard of before the launch program. She gets to the end. That's her top result. And there's very clear and available ways for her to learn that by the way, also because it's in such high demand, which she also didn't know, but I did.

Hannah Maruyama [00:39:00]:
And she gets to the end and there's all these programs, there's all these resources and they're extremely accessible and she can be done within a year with a ridiculously valuable, ridiculously in demand skill. And to top it all off the same week that she decided that this was her top choice, Amazon, the AWS publicly announced that they were removing degree requirements and experience requirements from their cloud computing jobs. So anyway, it was just a great, I just love it when it comes together like that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:39:24]:
Yeah. I actually hate the saying that I was literally just about to say. Perfect. Lay it on. This is like, drinking from a fire hose. This episode, even for me, like, as I do, I do this with you and put even me sitting here listening to you. I think also to me, I was trying to create create new synopsis in my brain for fresh for the definition of professions.

Hannah Maruyama [00:39:50]:
We had college degrees, maybe oh, wait. You do.

Ryan Maruyama [00:39:59]:
I don't know

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:01]:
if you guys can tell, but it's been a long

Ryan Maruyama [00:40:03]:
day. I'm literally just

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:06]:
like, what is it? You were struggling. I was like, why are you he was over there red faced googling, his thumbs were just flailing. He was like looking so hard so intently. That's why it was so quiet and I was just talking for such a long time.

Ryan Maruyama [00:40:17]:
Yeah. And anyway, yeah, I, so I, I hate this. Like, it reminds me drinking from a fire hose that reminds me of that scene from The Office where BJ Novak, what was his name? Ryan? His name is Ryan.

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:32]:

Ryan Maruyama [00:40:33]:
Ryan tells Kelly and Pam, like, do you see them I hate when they say it's like crack. Like, do you see them from your world? From your world.

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:41]:
Like, scrapbooking. Like, scrapbooking? I love their breadsticks. And they're like, great. Isn't they from your world? Like scrapbooking.

Ryan Maruyama [00:40:49]:
As a former fireman, you know, I just think it's like, have you ever been around a fire hose? I'm gate keeping using that.

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:55]:
Come on, man.

Ryan Maruyama [00:40:56]:
You don't get down here. I don't know. It just irritates me, but I, but, but there was no better way to describe what just happened than that picture in people's minds. Anyway. Yeah. I think that this was a,

Hannah Maruyama [00:41:11]:
it was an episode. It was

Ryan Maruyama [00:41:12]:
an episode. I don't know.

Hannah Maruyama [00:41:14]:
I don't know if you guys can tell, but I was in charge of this.

Ryan Maruyama [00:41:17]:
I don't know if this is a good episode or not.

Hannah Maruyama [00:41:20]:
I bet people will love this episode.

Ryan Maruyama [00:41:21]:
I have no idea. We It was

Hannah Maruyama [00:41:22]:
freaking interesting, man. You know what, guys? Show me a little love. Okay? Well, you guys know already that Ryan usually produces our podcast episodes, and so they go a little bit smoother. But I like to think might have a little character to them, a little spice.

Ryan Maruyama [00:41:33]:
Well, this is my first time that I've like you actively used my phone to look something up in the studio and that was quite distracting. So I'm not sure that I'll ever do that again. But anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts about it. The best way that you could do that. Leave us a review on apple podcasts and let us know how we did.

Hannah Maruyama [00:41:50]:
And if you're going to leave us a bad review, don't blame it on me.

Ryan Maruyama [00:41:53]:
Just 5 stars. And then you'll give us your quote, honest feedback. You can say whatever you want in the comment as long as the thing says 5 stars.

Hannah Maruyama [00:42:01]:
Yes. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.

Ryan Maruyama [00:42:03]:
Alright. We gotta get out of here.

Hannah Maruyama [00:42:04]:
You're welcome.

Ryan Maruyama [00:42:05]:
Alright. We gotta get out of here. If you guys wanna get the books with the legal requirement breakdown for your 16 to 20 year old, you can go to degreefree.coforward/book. The show notes degreefree.coforward/podcast. And do you have anything else before we get out of here?

Hannah Maruyama [00:42:17]:
I do not. Thanks for staying.

Ryan Maruyama [00:42:19]:
Yeah. Thanks for listening. If you made it this far in the episode, you're a real 1.

Hannah Maruyama [00:42:22]:
That is how we feel.

Ryan Maruyama [00:42:23]:
I'm looking forward to seeing you next week. Until next week, guys. Aloha.

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