Biggest Job Lies #2: “Salary Depends on Experience” - Ep. 53

Ryan: Aloha folks. And welcome back to Degree Free.

We are your hosts, Ryan and Hannah Maruyama on this podcast, we share fundamentals we've discovered and the mistakes we've made while self-educating getting work, building businesses and making money. We'll tell you how to make it happen. No degree needed. 

Hannah: Welcome back everybody. And if you, which I know you do want to get a weekly email from Ryan and I about different job opportunities, apprenticeships, companies that are rolling back degree requirements and other cool degree free news, you are gonna wanna run.

Not walk over to degreefree.co/newsletter to get our free weekly newsletter. You do not wanna miss that I promise. So go on over and do that now. 

Ryan: Yeah. Awesome, and, let's get into today's episode. Today, it is gonna be another episode in our series. Biggest job lies. Today, we are gonna be talking about something that we've all heard before.

Salary depends on experience. 

Hannah: Everyone's probably seen this before on job descriptions, which is you're gonna get paid based on experience. The problem with that is that people assume this means if you have more experience, you'll get paid more. And if you have less experience, you'll get paid less, but that's not necessarily true.

And we need to talk about that because everybody needs to know how this affects them when they're negotiating for their salary. 

Ryan: Yeah, definitely. This is definitely one of the biggest lies out there about employment. And, so today we're gonna talk about it . Today we're gonna be talking about the different ways to say depends on experience.

Like the different ways that employers put it on job listings. We're also gonna be talking about why it's a lie and then, , obviously what you can do about it. So as far as the actual saying salary depends on experience. There's a bunch of ways to say that, right? Like it can be depends on qualifications or competitor, competitive salary based on experience

Hannah: or commensurate with experience.

Ryan: Yeah. Commensurate with experience, and this is my favorite. It's like, What does that even mean? , I don't know what you're saying. I'm so I'm gonna take you to disrespect. Watch your mouth, 

Hannah: Watch your mouth when you're talking to me. 

Ryan: Exactly. For all those that don't know, it's, a 40 old version, Kevin Hart, 

Hannah: if you haven't seen it, give it a watch.

Ryan: Yeah. But yeah, commensurate it with experience. Like I literally have no idea what that means. 

Hannah: I was gonna say who can even define the word commensurate, I think we can all extrapolate what that means based on the context of it but why even use that word. 

Ryan: Right? So this is just a bunch of ways that employers are gonna say this.

Hannah: So why is this a lie?

Ryan: So before we get started on this path, okay, obviously the, your skillset, you should get, paid for that. If you have more skills and you can bring more to the table. Sure. Get paid more, if you can negotiate more sure. Pay, get paid more. If you have less skills and you can't negotiate as well, you're gonna get paid less.

That's fine. We're not saying that everybody needs to get paid the same amount. That's ridiculous. We're not even saying that people in the same roles need to get paid the same amount because that's also ridiculous. 

Hannah: Now in a perfect world, depending on what you think perfect is, right? And this is really dependent on the individual.

And so what we're trying to have a nuanced conversation about the reality of this and how you can operate and the current reality in which we live. But if in a perfect world, people, you either believe that people get paid more if they're good and they get paid less, if they're bad, or everybody gets paid the same amount, right.

One of those two things, 

Ryan: It just depends on how you view the world.

Hannah: Right. Which entirely up to you. 

Ryan: Yeah. And now that this, that preamble is outta the. This line is a lie because every company has a range for the role that you're applying to. Every company. Nobody's being like, okay, I have this job opening for, I don't know a loan operations tech, and I don't know what I'm gonna pay them. 

Hannah: And they're using this range because they want to hard negotiate with you because in the same way that you make money, when you buy something you make and that you don't overspend, it's the same way with employers where, when they're hiring you, if they limit the amount of money they spend on you, they're making money because they're locking you in at a specific rate.

And that's why they wanna do that. That's the reason they do it. . 

Ryan: Yeah. 

And it's not like, so what not gets to me, but what is a lie about this? Is that it depends on your experience. It's not like some fortune 500 COO is gonna go and apply for this loan operations tech, and then expect to get a fortune 500 COO pay. 

Hannah: Right.

Ryan: Because that's what he has experience for. Right. And so can he come in there and affect change in a massive way, probably, but that's not the role. 

Hannah: You can even make that a smaller example too. Let's just say it's somebody who, let's just say you have a general manager of a restaurant, right. And they're gonna go down and instead they wanna work at Starbucks at the entry level barista level. They're not gonna pay that person a GM McDonald's salary just because , they were a GM at McDonald's before. Even if they have 10 years of experience, they're gonna hire them at whatever hourly rate they're applying for, because that's the job that they're applying for.

And there is a standard range. Now it's not to say that the GM couldn't negotiate up because of their experience. Right. But. They're more limited because of the job that they're applying for. 

Ryan: Exactly. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: So as you said, it is, this whole thing is meant to get you the employee at the lowest price possible, right.

It forces you to negotiate, right? So that's kind of slides really nicely into the next thing that we wanna talk about. So it's a lie because, everybody, all the jobs have a range. And so it doesn't depend on your experience within that range. It is. It also doesn't depend on your experience.

It depends on how you negotiate. 

Hannah: Yeah. And I think something too, before we move on, I just wanna state too. This is just the way it is because the company is trying to get you at the lowest rate possible, and you are trying to get the highest rate possible. So just remember that there's fundamentally a tug of war over money, right?

When you are in this position where you're hiring or being hired, and your goal is to get as much for yourself and their goal is to get as much for themselves. Right. So when you're negotiating, just keep that in mind because. One of you is gonna come out on top. Right. And ideally for us, we want the employee to come out on top.

 'Cause we want them to negotiate well, but just keep that in the back of your mind, because it'll help you have context over the salary negotiation. 

Ryan: Yeah. So big question. Right? How do we deal with this? And there are a few things, that we've gotta deal with when it comes to, if you see this on a job application and you apply to it, and now you're in the interview and now you're past the job application phase, and we're assuming that you put it in and you're past that. One thing is the first thing is you gotta be prepared to negotiate.

The second thing is you gotta have salary research done and you have to have a number. And the third is you gotta focus on the future and we'll slowly break those down right now. 

Hannah: All right. So when you are applying to jobs, you have to be prepared to negotiate. And this is across the board.

It doesn't really matter what you're applying for. Even if you're applying for a job that pays 12 bucks an hour, you wanna try to get up to 13. You wanna try to get up to 14, right? Because this is your time to negotiate because you're only. Ideally, you'd only become a more valuable employee, right? The longer you work there, the more, you're gonna be trained, you're gonna know the deal, right?

So you wanna try to make as much as possible in the negotiation phase and, you wanna try to make as much as possible in the negotiation phase, and so it's a good idea for you to keep in mind that you're gonna have to negotiate hard from the very get, go. 

Ryan: Yeah. When you see this on a job listing from the employer, you can pretty much take it to the bank that you're going to have to negotiate your salary. Because they're not giving you, they're not even giving you a range for you to start within. Right. Some, I mean, at least if you had a range, that'd be easier, right. Or at least "easier".

Say, you're applying to be a office manager and it says 60,000 to 85,000, you know? Depends on experience. All right. That's at least, a range, right? 

Hannah: Yeah. Something.

Ryan: So you know that you're gonna have to negotiate within 60, 85, but what if it just says depends on experience, right?

Cause. Now it means now the office manager. Can be pay $30,000 a year. It can be $28,000 a year to, I don't know, 185,000, $126,000 a year, whatever the numbers are. And so from the get go, you're just gonna have to remember that you're going to start off negotiating. And one of the things, there are a few tips for negotiating, but I think negotiation, tactics and tips. So that's gonna be like a whole nother episode probably. Yeah. But quickly, some quick ones here is what we like to do is we don't like to start first. 

Hannah: Never start first. 

Ryan: Yeah. And 

Hannah: You do not say the number first. 

Ryan: We don't want to set the number, we would rather see where they're at.

I go as far as to say never, 

it just, it depends on your negotiation style and it depends on your negotiation tactics. So there are some people that would rather go first and then they can use anchoring, which is like a mental shortcut, basically like a psychological behavioral psychologist type of thing where, I would say, oh yeah, you know, somebody's asking you.

What do you expect to get from the job? And you're like, I'll have a million bucks now, but it's okay. I'll take 200,000. Right. And ah, now it looks low, right? Exactly. That's anchoring. I'm not good at that. And I, I don't do that. So I don't do it. 

Hannah: I think I tried to do that once. I think I tried to do that one time.

Ryan: Did it work? 

Hannah: I think so. I think, what did you do for, I was, I think I said, I think I jokingly said $1 million and they were like, hahaha. And I was like and then I gave my number.

Ryan: Yeah.

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: And you got it? Yeah, I did actually.

Nice. 

Hannah: I did. 

Ryan: Okay. 

 So obviously what you said earlier is not true then never is not true.

Hannah: I think I didn't count that, anchoring as the actual number. Right. Because I said it earlier in the conversation, just joking around. And then when we got into actual money, they were the ones, they were the ones, so they said, what do you think? And I said, well, what is your range? So I didn't view it as, I don't know.

Do you view that as me throwing out the first number or not? 

I don't 

Ryan: know. Did you, I don't know. I wasn't in the conversation. Did they throw out the first number? 

Hannah: Yeah. The first actual salary range. 

Ryan: Yeah, no then no.

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: But I think from what I remember about anchor and we'll put some blog posts or articles about anchoring in the show notes for you guys degreefree.co, and then you can look on under podcasts so that we can learn more about this.

But from what I understand about anchoring too, it doesn't necessarily have to be in the same context. Like you can do it exactly. I'm not sure if you.. So you said a million bucks prior to them saying a number? 

Hannah: Yeah. 'Cause we were talking about, I think it, it was just earlier in the conversation or in a previous conversation where salary was not being discussed.

Ryan: Right? Yeah. So that, from what I understand that is anchoring. That even you, can do it regardless of whether or not you're actually talking about the number at the time. Because you're just getting them used to a higher baseline of numbers. 

Hannah: Right.

Ryan: Regardless of, 

Hannah: regardless of what you're.

Hmm. Interesting. 

Ryan: Regardless of your negotiation at the time.

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: There's another movie, Focus with Will Smith and Margo Robbie there's that scene? There's like a football player. It's like the football scene in the middle of the movie, BD Wong is like this, Chinese gambler type and they're at the Super Bowl.

Hannah: He's like a high roller

Ryan: Right. And I guess they use the number 55 to try to anchor him to that number the entire time.

Hannah: And they just show him that number, driving from the hotel. 

Ryan: Right. It's either anchoring or recency bias. Somebody will correct me on the internet. You know, you guys. 

Hannah: Somebody will

Ryan: Yeah.

C[email protected] 'cause you can send your complaints there. 

Hannah: Let us know, send 'em right through to the support team. 

Ryan: Right? Exactly. Yeah. You can let us know there, , what I got wrong and what I got right. Somebody's gonna correct.

Recency bias or anchoring, let us know. 

Right. Exactly. 

Or availability by whatever one of those things, one of the biases anyway, but yes. 

So that's the first thing is don't start first. Yeah. At least I don't like to. And I think you don't like to either. No. And that's just because it gives us a good idea of what they have in their mind.

Then we can counter from there. We can work off, we can work off of their numbers, but I find for myself every time that I've started first and, and might not be because I'm not a master negotiator. Right. When I start first, I often find that I am negotiating against myself. .

So like, if I start at whatever, if I start at $10,000, They'll start at 5,000 and then now I have to negotiate, , and then now we're, we're meeting somewhere in the middle, but that's not really how it goes. 

Hannah: I feel like if you're not experienced at negotiation, which I don't think that I am.

And I don't know that you are either. I think most people, probably our age it'd be hard to be really experienced negotiator at our age. I think actually, cause I think that just takes a lot of time and a lot of negotiation,

Ryan: I think age has nothing to do with it. I think it's all experience.

I think age has nothing to do it.

Hannah: I guess. That's true. 

Yeah. That's somebody who's 21 could have negotiated 

Ryan: like somebody that's 12.

Hannah: Yeah, you're right. You're right.

Ryan: Somebody that's 12 that sits in on me. I'm not saying that these people are 

Hannah: frequent.

Ryan: Yeah. Frequent. I'm not saying that we can throw a stone and we'll hit one. I'm just saying that they exist and 

Hannah: and you shouldn't throw stones 

Ryan: right? Exactly. 

Hannah: 12 year olds. 

Ryan: Yeah, exactly. But like it's all experience as you said. And so if they've been having meetings with people and negotiating contract deals and things like that

Hannah: Then they know how to do it. 

Ryan: Right by the time they're 18, by the time they're 16 they're experts. 

Hannah: So I'll fix my statement by saying, I don't think that I'm an experienced negotiator and I don't know that you are either. And I think that if people are not experienced negotiators, you are oftentimes going to cut your own legs out from under you.

If you start first, because you just don't know enough to know that you're at the right number. And so you want. Right or accurate or appropriate. Right. So you want them to say it first because you just don't know enough to know what the number is.

Ryan: And the thing is too, is that if, if an employer is putting this on their job listings, and if you look through other job listings and they also have this number on there, they also have this tactic on there depends on experience or commensurate with experience, or depends on qualifications.

If that's on every one of their listings, the chances of the person that you're sitting across from either virtually or in person or through email or however you're having your negotiations, the chances of them having much more experience in negotiations is pretty high. Because they're negotiating with everybody.

 And so, anyway, I like to not start first. I think the second thing is gonna be willing to walk away. 

Hannah: If you can, 

Ryan: if you can walk away. You gotta, just be willing to

Hannah: it's the ultimate power because it puts you in this mindset where you don't need it. So now you're much less emotionally attached to the outcome and you can be more objective.

 So if the number's too low, 

Use a sports analogy, you're not fighting outta the corner, right?

 It's a lot harder. If you're not willing to walk away. If you're not willing to walk away, if you need the job, if you need the job, you gotta take it. Just take the job. 

Ryan: I mean, you can always, 

Hannah: you should try to negotiate anyway, just to get the practice in.

Ryan: Right. Exactly. Absolutely negotiate. But if you need the job, take the job and then okay. If it's not enough money, then continue applying. And just continue applying. Continue applying, continue applying that's yep. And just leverage. Okay. Now you now you're getting paid 65,000. You really wanted to make 85,000. 

Now at least you secured your bills and you just level up again. Yeah. At least you secured your bills and you just keep applying 

Hannah: Absolutely. 

Ryan: There's a good quick video. I think it's like. Minutes long or something like that. Tim Ferris has one on YouTube on like tactics of how to negotiate, like how to negotiate and the one and the art of deal making or the art of deal or something like that. I don't know. 

We'll put in the show notes for you guys degree free SEO. Yeah. We'll put in the show notes for you guys, but that's something that, it's a quick video. That's good for the basics of negotiation. And then what helped us a couple of books that really helped us was, How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.

I mean, we talked about this all the time. 

Hannah: I cannot, I cannot stress to you folks. How important this book is. I didn't read it until more recently and it is, I am not exaggerating when I say it is a life changing book. Still, and I read the old versions. I have the original, it's the very old, like the pages are all the pages are all yellow and brown and it's falling apart, but it's the original edition and it's still so applicable.

Like just mind blowing. It's mind blowing. Everyone should read it. 

Ryan: Yeah. That's a classic influence by Robert Chaldini. That's a good one as well. And then there's two books by, I think it's William Ury Getting To Yes that's a good one on negotiation. And then getting past no is also a good one, but getting past no, I think is more relevant in sales, but 

Hannah: Do you have to get past no to get to yes? 

Ryan: Yeah. I suppose. Right. I think getting to yes came out first though. If I'm not mistaken like I said, somebody correct me on the internet. Contact at degreefree.co please. But yes. Those are gonna be some books get started a quick YouTube video for those beginners out there.

And I think we'll make a negotiation episode, at a later time. 

Hannah: Yeah, we will. 

Ryan: The second thing is gonna be salary research and having your number. 

Hannah: This is really difficult to do too, because there's no one right answer to this and how I did this, how I've done this in the past, was just researching different salary range giver. So you can Google Glassdoor, Reddit, use your personal budget for needs and wants to come up with a base number that you need another really useful hack that you can do. Cuz a lot of people are gonna be like, oh my God, you can't look at Glassdoor for salary. Right. Because they just say it's an accurate, but the thing is you have to

come up with a number from somewhere you shouldn't go in with no number, you need to have some number. And if you don't know what the number is, you have to have some baseline to figure out what, whatever that is. But a really useful hack you can use is if you go on LinkedIn and you search listings For similar job titles and you type in location as Colorado, Colorado actually requires employers to give a base salary range for any job title that they list.

So that can help you because it's gotta be somewhere close to national I would think so that will probably help you too, if you're really struggling to come up with a number. 

Ryan: Yeah. And this is something that you should be doing anyway. Not to preach at you, you do whatever you want.

 But you should be doing this anyway. Just having some sort of salary expectation, some sort of number, and then if we have this number, now we can have our walk away point. Yeah. Which kind of brings us to the second negotiation tactic that we talked about. Right. Is where do we walk away?

Like when the conversation. Doesn't turn our way. If you wanted 59,000 and you know, whatever, $500 and they offer you $59,499 a year. Okay. No, the floor was this 59, 500 I'm walking.

Hannah: Mm-hmm 

Ryan: right. Okay. Walk away if you can afford to do it.

Hannah: Yeah. If you can afford to, this is something too that, I will say if you have a partner or a spouse or something, having this discussion with them can be really helpful when I was first starting out doing this, so my first tech job that I got into Ryan and I sat down and we made a spreadsheet and came up with, we did the math on how much. I wanted to make a month. And then we're like, if it's this much, and I think the ask was like, the ask was 70. Yeah. 70k. And we were like, okay, if, you know, what, if they offer you 65? And we were like, oh, the money would really be good. Right. But, we broke it down.

We were like, can we responsibly walk away from this amount of money? Yes or no? And we were like, yeah, we can. Cuz we think that we thought that I could get something else. Right. And so you and I like literally did the math and when they offered me too low, before I made negotiation, they, we were like, no, if they offer, if that's the final offer, the answer is no.

And it really made it easier because I knew exactly going in what's too low. Highly advised doing that. 

Ryan: Yeah, definitely. And we still do that for everything that we do. Like whenever we're talking to anybody about anything. About any sort of, any type of negotiation we always have a walkaway number.

 And. Luckily we are able to do that, right? Yeah. There was a time though that we weren't able to do it. And so when I first got into sales, I took a job that barely paid any money. And the, the job, I think, paid $10 an hour for 20 hours a week. Or no, 10 something small 10 to 20 hours a week for two weeks.

And that was my training "period". But I knew, and that's 200 bucks a week, right? That's not enough, I'm a big guy. I can eat that. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's, like I eat that in two days, that's crazy. You do. Yeah. And so I'm thinking to myself, all right. Well, That's way lower than I thought, but the upside was that it was all commission based on the other side of it.

 So I weighed the pros and cons and I, 

Hannah: We talked about it

Ryan: .Right. I weighed the pros and cons and I took it even though it was way below my negotiation price, but I took it because commission and sure enough, I dedicated myself,

Hannah: blew it outta the water. 

Ryan: I dedicated myself.

And two weeks later I made a $3,000 check from one week of work. 

And then 

Hannah: We high fived and it was pretty cool, 

Ryan: But you just have to weigh the pros and cons. 

Hannah: For yourself, and that's highly individual and only really at the end of the day only you can do it.

Ryan: Yeah. The last. Thing is gonna be focusing on the future. Usually employers that are doing this, they're gonna really wanna focus on the past, right? They're going to, they're starting off with your previous work history. A lot of times it might be coupled with, oh, how much are you currently making? 

And why does that matter? Your past or current pay has no reflection on your future pay. You know, this is important. So I'm gonna say it again. Your past or current pay has no determination or reflection on your future pay. Why people want to know that blows my mind. I don't know. It doesn't matter.

Right. They wanna know it because. They wanna pay you as close to that as possible, because they're like, you're cheap. You know what I mean? What do you do now? Oh, I work for $15 an hour at wherever, Walmart and you're applying for a social media job. Maybe you're freelancing on the side.

You're a little bit entrepreneurial. You have a good portfolio of like graphic design and you're applying for a mid-tier graphic design job. You have the chops to do it, but you're just. You work at McDonald's obviously, and you're getting pay $15 an hour. So they're gonna try to pay you 1550. Yeah. Right.

And it's like, why not? Right. I okay. I get that. Yeah. But it's your job to not focus on working at McDonald's right. You are gonna be focusing on how your graphic design skills can bring value to their company. How we can communicate, their brand or their voice or their mission or whatever. 

Hannah: Yep. And it's the only person that's gonna look out for you in that case is you. And so you have to do it. Also keep in mind that in some states it is illegal to ask what you were making before. So there are some ways that, people will try to get that information out of you. So watch for those ways and just make sure that you are not do not out yourself, depending on what you were doing before.

It's none of their business, what you were making before. That has nothing to do with what you're doing right now. 

Ryan: Yep. So you might be wondering, right? Like how do we get around the masking? Unfortunately, you can't really get around the masking, right. They're either gonna ask or they're not, or they're not gonna ask, right.

Chances are, they're gonna ask because they wanna know what you get paid so that they can lowball you so they can lowball you. So they can get you for whatever, for cookies. . We don't suggest here, we don't suggest lying. 

Hannah: No, we never suggest lying. Don't lie. It's just not a good policy.

Honesty is the best policy yes. All it really is. 

Ryan: You do not want to start your new employment off on a lie. . You can either tell them the truth or politely decline. And just be like, 

Hannah: a good way to do that instead of declining. Just say, I'm really interested in knowing what your range is.

Can you tell me what it is? 

Ryan: Right, exactly. So that that's that's exactly. I agree with you. That is exactly what I was gonna say, which is the decline when you say, oh yeah, I don't think, maybe, it's not relevant. I don't think that's relevant to this position. I'd really love to know what your range is or I'd love to discuss how I could further bring value to your company.

And here's X, Y, Z. And focus on, right? Like we said, focus on the future, focus on the value. So you decline politely and then you focus on how you can bring value to them and whatever that is, whether that's saving money. Bringing in more revenue or increasing efficiency, whatever the role that you're applying to does. 

Hannah: Try not to use any negative words when you are declining.

What you're trying to do is what you're trying to do is elevate the person who you're asking like your oh, your range is much more important. I'd rather hear that. Just no, no negative words, right? Like you just try to avoid them. If you can 

Ryan: yeah, sure. Kind of like, what is that called impromptu stuff like?

Hannah: Yes. And 

Ryan: What is that called? That type of theater. 

Hannah: Improv comedy

Ryan: Yes, exactly.

Hannah: Yeah. , you don't say no. You don't use the word no. You don't say don't. You don't say I don't want, I don't whatever. Just try to be like, oh, you're the professional, what's your range, right? 

Ryan: You can elevate them. That's definitely a good goal. That's definitely a good goal. If you do go negative. Which a lot of us do. It's natural. You should definitely practice. I think they, 

Hannah: yes, you can do it gracely and politely. 

I think 

Ryan: you should definitely practice what you just said, but that doesn't come naturally for me if I, but if a negative, 

if a negative does come outta my mouth, I'm gonna make sure that it's like

Hannah: a positive negative? 

Ryan: Well, yeah, , no, but no, and right. And just kind of roll, roll off. Like no, no, period is not what we're gonna, yeah. 

What we're gonna use, what we're say 

Hannah: a negotiation is a dance. You're not trying to step on your partner's toes, right? Because you like, like we've talked about at the beginning, you are both trying to get what you want. Ultimately, usually one of you is gonna come out with more of what you want, because it's rare to get a win-win situation and a negotiation.

So just try to keep that in mind, like they want a thing and you want a thing and you're trying to get to the point where ideally you get more of the thing that you want than they do. So you have to do it carefully and kindly. 

Ryan: Yeah. That's all. Yeah. I think that's definitely one of the most important just focusing on the future.

Right. And just don't let them dwell on the past. Don't let them, you have to carve a story, narrate a story, and that story is going to be about the future with their company and what you can do with them. 

Hannah: And why you're the best and why they should pay you. 

Ryan: Exactly. And this is especially true for people that are trying to go into a new earnings bracket.

Like it's especially true for those people that are trying to catapult into different careers, which we see it all the time. We really do. The going from working at McDonald's or working in a restaurant, which there's nothing wrong with that, going from that, going into doing something else where you're making double or triple of that.

That's definitely possible. 

Hannah: Yeah. It is more so every day, 

Ryan: just focus on the future though. Yeah. And the value that you can bring, this is why, this is what the future looks like with me in it. 

And that's why, so just kind of wrap this up, like the biggest, job lies, , I love this series.

We're gonna do a lot. 

Hannah: We're having fun. 

Ryan: We're gonna do a lot more of these, but the salary depends on experience. Just like grinds my gears, man. 

yeah, it just bothers me. 

Hannah: I mean, it's bullshit.

Ryan: Yeah. It just bothers me. 

Hannah: Yeah. It's just not true. It's not a useful thing to say cuz it's just not true.

Ryan: Yeah. There's a range for that job that they're willing to pay for. You have to figure out what that range is and then you have to go and get it. 

Hannah: Yeah. It's increasingly less true with time. I think maybe at one point it was right. The more experience you had, the more you were worth for sure.

And that's how employers hired, but now it's just, lawless out there and that's just not the case anymore. 

Ryan: The rebuttal that we hear from this is okay. If it's a small company, if it's a small team, maybe they're willing to pay, one person to do two people's jobs.

So maybe they're willing to pay $120,000 to one person instead of paying 60,000 to two people. And maybe that's just because you're a generalist because you can do the social media management. You can do the graphic design, you can cut up the podcast. You can do SEO. You can be a whole marketing department within, by yourself within one.

It really does depend on, it really does depend on experience. Okay. I agree with you. They still have a range.

Hannah: Yeah. 

Ryan: They still have a range. Right. And we just talked about it right there, 60,000 to 120,000, but really it's just 120,000 is a range, cuz they're willing to pay 60,000 to two people or 120,000 to one person.

 That's all I'm saying. Yeah.

Hannah: That's a totally different way to look at it too, but yeah, absolutely. 

Ryan: Right. 

So anyway, , that's the rebuttal that I hear to that all the time. And so I just wanted to like nip that in the butt. Like it's still. I'm just saying that they have a range and that they should be for like, they should be forth with or forefront or whatever.

Hannah: Yeah. With that upfront, 

Ryan: upfront. With that but yeah, that's pretty much it guys. Thank you very much for listening as always, if you guys wanted to support the podcast, please, consider leaving us a review anywhere that you get your podcasts. Like and subscribe. That'd be awesome. 

Hannah: Yeah.

And then if you do wanna get the newsletter, which of course you do, go on over to degreefree.co/newsletter and grab that so you don't miss anything. 

Ryan: Yep, absolutely. Until next time guys. Aloha.