November 29, 2023

3 Conversations to Have With Your Child Before They Buy a Degree (DF#125)

3 Conversations to Have With Your Child Before They Buy a Degree

Making Smart Choices for the Future

In this episode, we discussed three important conversations to have with your child before they spend five and a half years and hundreds of thousands of dollars on a college degree.

What You'll Learn:

• Determining if the desired job legally requires a degree and exploring alternative paths such as trade schools or online courses.
• Weighing the financial implications of pursuing a degree and considering options like apprenticeships or starting a business.
• Researching job prospects, salary expectations, and the current and future demand for a particular career before making a decision.

Tune in to gain valuable insights about the practical aspects of pursuing a college degree.

Enjoy the episode!

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Uncover the truths about education and career paths in our last episode as we challenge the myth that college is the sole gateway to knowledge, explore the evolving job market, and provide valuable insights on adapting to change—don't miss out, listen now for a fresh perspective.

Links and Notes from the Episode

Episode Summary:

In this podcast episode, Ryan and Hannah discuss three important conversations parents should have with their children before pursuing a college degree. They highlight the need to research if a desired job legally requires a degree and provide examples of professions where a degree may not be necessary.

They also explore alternative paths to gain experience and skills without a degree and emphasize the importance of understanding the return on investment of a college degree. The conversation focuses on the college degree requirement for certain professions like doctors and lawyers. They discuss the impact of debt burden on healthcare providers and mention that a college degree is not legally required for pilots in the US.

Ryan and Hannah stress the importance of understanding job requirements, particularly in pink-collar jobs, before pursuing a degree. They also encourage individuals to consider the realities and sacrifices of certain professions, such as the demanding nature of healthcare. Ryan and Hannah discuss the challenges that doctors and other high-income professionals face in having large families. They mention the impact of medical education and work on fertility and delays in family planning.

They note that similar challenges may apply to other professions like law. They urge individuals to prioritize their goals, and make career choices accordingly, and mention the need for further conversations about this topic.

Connect with Ryan:

Connect With Hannah:

Action Steps & Recommendations:

  • Research whether the desired job legally requires a degree
  • Explore alternative paths to gaining experience and skills without a degree
  • Understand the return on investment of a college degree
  • Consider alternatives like trade schools or entrepreneurship
  • Truly understand the realities and sacrifices of certain professions
  • Explore alternative paths like volunteering or starting at a lower level
  • Prioritize goals and consider the potential impact on other aspects of life

Timestamps:

  • 00:04:20 - Importance of researching if a job requires a degree
  • 00:05:12 - Examples of jobs that don't require a degree
  • 00:05:42 - Examples of jobs that require a degree
  • 00:11:54 - The argument against going straight into med school after the MCAT is maturity.
  • 00:13:38 - The problem of healthcare providers coming out of school with high amounts of debt.
  • 00:19:29 - The shortage of airline pilots and the lack of a college degree requirement to be a pilot.
  • 00:23:42 - Consider the realities of working in nursing or healthcare professions
  • 00:24:16 - Importance of understanding job descriptions before pursuing a career
  • 00:33:48 - Evaluate if pursuing a degree aligns with long-term goals
  • 00:34:42 - Doctors, especially female doctors, may struggle with fertility
  • 00:38:02 - Doctors often marry other doctors due to shared understanding of the sacrifices required

References, Resources Mentioned & Suggested Reading:

Episode Transcript
Please enjoy this transcript or our episode!

Please note the transcript may have a few errors. We're human. It can be hard to catch all the errors from a full length conversation. Enjoy!

Hannah Maruyama [00:00:00]:

Realized there's gonna be a point in the future where someone that we care about or one of us is sick and there's not enough nurses. We'll deal with that then. I do not care enough about that to tell people to sacrifice their future because we need these jobs. Do not send your kids into this meat grinder if they don't Stand what it's actually gonna entail to work in that environment. To do that day in and day out, that's not a good reason. They need to really understand what that's gonna look like before they buy a degree and go into that industry.

Ryan Maruyama [00:00:38]:

That's actually pretty funny. Alright. We're back. So this might look And sound a little bit different than normal, and that is because we are in a temporary studio.

Hannah Maruyama [00:00:51]:

We are. We are. Looks pretty okay, though.

Ryan Maruyama [00:00:53]:

Yeah. And the temporary studio, and I'm using air quotes here, temporary, but I can't do it because I'm holding the mic, is Just a section of your office.

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:03]:

Yes. So we're actually in my office right now. Can you tell by the decor?

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:09]:

For the long time watchers, for the long time viewers, this is gonna be, like, old school. I think we did this, like, A year and a half ago, maybe, we had to do this because we are moving studios again. And so the studio quote was our living room.

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:26]:

Yes. Also, back then, the house we lived in was, like, open air, and so we would have to pause every single time.

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:34]:

Every time a truck went by

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:35]:

Which was awful one time. It's It's, like, every 2 and a half minutes, and Ryan would lose his mind every time.

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:41]:

Through the magic of editing, we got it all out for the most part. But, yeah, that's Totally, totally true. Yeah. And, I mean, if you're also watching the video, you know, I look a little different as well. I went I was like, you know what? New studio. New you. And so, really, what it is is it just like I was like, we're moving studios, and and we have to, like, set this up, and it actually takes quite a bit of time to set this up. And so I was just, like, screw it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:02:10]:

I'm just gonna do this in what I'm wearing right now, which is I'm literally wearing my old, like, firefighter sweatshirt uniform and, and a new Degree free hat. Well, it's not new. It's actually very old, but I don't wanna find the other one.

Hannah Maruyama [00:02:26]:

Because we're moving studios, and everything is everywhere. So here we are.

Ryan Maruyama [00:02:29]:

So here we are. Anyway, let's jump into today's episode. I think that today's episode is gonna be Excellent. And it's gonna be awesome. And you are taking the reins on this episode. We haven't talked too much about this, But I will let you take it away.

Hannah Maruyama [00:02:47]:

Yeah. So today, we are doing the today is the movie adaptation of the book. But really today is the podcast adaptation of the TikTok. And this TikTok that I filmed last week was 3 conversations You need to have with your kid before they spend 5 and a half years and a $100,000 buying a college degree. And we've racked up, it's getting close to 800 1,000 views, and we got a lot of comments, a lot of interesting conversations that you and I have had out of that. And so I really just wanted to bring that to the podcast and recap it for our listeners on the podcast because I think that they can get a lot of value out of it. And if they can't, then they certainly know someone who can. So it's something that I think is gonna be really interesting and valuable for for all of us to talk over.

Ryan Maruyama [00:03:37]:

Alright. Let's jump into it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:03:38]:

So here are the 3 conversations. Here is the conversation number 1 that you need to have with your kid before they spend 5 and a half years and a $100,000. And that is please please please please look up with your child whether or not The job that they want to go into legally requires a degree before they buy 1. That is the biggest thing. That's Check number 1. You should just know that information off the bat because you and I, especially over the last few weeks, I don't know what it is recently with the marketing degrees, but specifically on TikTok, So many people with marketing degrees who are extremely disgruntled about the result of their degree because they didn't need it. They never needed it. And that's something thing that begs conversation, but they could have just checked.

Hannah Maruyama [00:04:24]:

They could have just looked at marketing roles and seen, oh, wait a minute. It's not like I need this for a license to get into marketing. I could just learn marketing principles. I can just learn marketing software. I can just Learn marketing tools, and then I can just apply for marketing jobs and get the exact same ones.

Ryan Maruyama [00:04:40]:

So give us some examples.

Hannah Maruyama [00:04:42]:

So a good example would be a digital marketing manager. Do not need to buy a college degree for that. There's no license. There's no state that issues a license that says you must fulfill this many hours from a bachelor's degree, from an accredited university or college before you can apply for this marketing job. No. They only care that you know what's going on, that you know how to do it, that you have some proof and some evidence that you can do the actual work. If you have a portfolio where that says, look. I've managed these ads or I've run these campaigns or I've done these things, just submit that.

Hannah Maruyama [00:05:11]:

But there is no legal requirement for you to have paid a college in order to get those jobs. None. 0.

Ryan Maruyama [00:05:17]:

Give me an example of a legally required

Hannah Maruyama [00:05:21]:

degree CPA. You have to fulfill a certain amount of bachelor's degree hours in order to get a CPA license. You're gonna be an accountant, but you cannot be a CPA. Those are different things. That apparently was a really controversial take on TikTok, but you can be an accountant or a bookkeeper without being a CPA, and people have really confused those 2 things. Those are not the same job.

Ryan Maruyama [00:05:39]:

This is something that I could speak to. I was an accountant. I was a bookkeeper, and I'm not a CPA. Exactly. I held the job title of accountant. Like, that was the job title, and I fulfilled the roles and the duties of an accountant. I just wasn't a certified public accountant.

Hannah Maruyama [00:05:58]:

If someone wanted to become an accountant, let's say, what would you say that they need in order to actually Get that job.

Ryan Maruyama [00:06:04]:

In order to be an accountant, you have to have a really good base of accounting. Wow. Shocker, Ryan. I mean, this is why you come to the degree free podcast.

Hannah Maruyama [00:06:16]:

It's this kind of earth shattering information that we live for.

Ryan Maruyama [00:06:21]:

Shocker. But what I mean by that is, like, okay. So it's very difficult to get that. Right? And so accounting is one of those Things where a lot of people you say that you have to go to college in order to be educated in the accounting field, which is just inaccurate. But the colleges Help in that they do have classes for accounting, but you could also just go and take a course on Business accounting 101 on something that doesn't require any money or have college degree requirements. If you are starting from the ground up and you wanna go into the bookkeeping accounting role, one of the places that you could start to gain Experience is going to be going into companies' accounts receivables and accounts payables roles. Those are basically just clerks That are rounding up invoices and making sure things are paid and that you are getting paid. But doing those things, You start to understand.

Ryan Maruyama [00:07:19]:

Okay. This is this is what a receivable is. This is what accounts payable is. This is what a t account is. Right. This is what double entry bookkeeping looks like. Right? And using all of that in practice, Yes. So say that you are taking a course online or through some other means, and then you also get an accounts receivable job, Then you start to understand how your role rolls up into accounting in general.

Ryan Maruyama [00:07:49]:

So what does it all mean? Just like anything else with accounting, it is understanding terms. Understanding terms, defining terms, That is really where you're gonna find the highest lift when you're first starting out. Right? So, yes, get an entry level Full job somewhere, accounts receivable, accounts payable, and accounting clerk, those types of roles, which I think largely in the next Few years are going to be going away, so you might wanna jump on this soon. Accounting in general is going to see a massive shift.

Hannah Maruyama [00:08:23]:

And The robot should be doing that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:08:25]:

Yeah. Well, at least that type of role, it's gonna be seeing a a massive shift. But Right now, they still need it. We we still need it, especially with data privacy issues and data privacy concerns. Because unless you work for a literally an accounting firm, your company isn't going to take the risk of introducing the AI To your data and your and your role in exposing all the other stuff. I mean

Hannah Maruyama [00:08:52]:

because they have to do so much due diligence to make sure it's secure and compliant. Oh, sure. Sure.

Ryan Maruyama [00:08:57]:

Yeah. And then they could just hire you for, you know, $14 an hour, $10 an hour to do the exact same thing, and You're not risking as much of the data privacy issues

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:08]:

Right. At least

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:08]:

right now.

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:09]:

Oh, no. That actually makes a lot of sense. You made a pretty good case for human accounting, actually.

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:13]:

Yeah. Well, at least, clerking.

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:15]:

In the temporary future, for sure.

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:17]:

So learning the terms really matters. Just getting back to it. Learning the terms really matter. So, In our what is an income statement? What is a profit and loss statement? Same thing. Same thing. I don't know. We had a a general accepted Counting principles, those are gap principles. What is EBITDA? Right? Like, what is cash flow? And so learning these terms Will really help to get your feet wet.

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:42]:

Ideally, if you gain a little bit of knowledge, you could get a role at a place That has an interview that is skills based. And so I know this firsthand because when I got hired as an accountant, I actually didn't have any accounting experience, but I knew a little bit of accounting. And so My boss who ended up being my boss, he was interviewing me. And the whole interview was basically him drawing t accounts on a board and being like, What happens when this transaction happens? What happens when this transaction happens? What happens when this transaction happens? 45 minutes later, an hour later, he was like, alright. You got the job.

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:22]:

That's how it should be.

Ryan Maruyama [00:10:23]:

Yeah. You know what I mean? He was just like, alright. That's good enough for me. You you don't need an accounting degree. You got it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:28]:

Yeah. This Stories for another time, but he was quite a character to your boss at that at that place.

Ryan Maruyama [00:10:34]:

So I did wanna add here the terminology that Is commonly used in licensing and certification space is gonna be the license to practice. And so that is what you're looking for here. Is is a college degree necessary, like, legally required To practice whatever it is. Is, you know, a certain licensure actually required to practice whatever the job is? That's what you're looking up, and that's what you're searching for.

Hannah Maruyama [00:11:06]:

And most everybody's gonna know is doctors. Right? Physicians. They have to have a certain amount of hours in a bachelor's degree program in order to get a legal license to practice medicine. That is a thing. Currently, in every in all 50 states, That is how it works. You have to do that. It is a must. It's not negotiable.

Hannah Maruyama [00:11:24]:

It's not something you can get around even though you and I both think that that's ridiculous, and they should just be able to take the MCAT. And if you pass it. Because as you've pointed out before, it's the MCAT that gets you into medical school. If you can pass it, why wouldn't why shouldn't you be able to just go right into medical school? I don't need my doctor to appreciate just Jackson Pollock. I just need them to know how to cut and dose things. That's it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:11:45]:

I completely agree with you. The argument that I hear all the time for not just taking the MCAT and going straight into med school is maturity. And it's gonna be, well, I don't want an 18 year old to operate on me, so on and so forth. They're not mature enough to do the role. But I find it interesting is it's like, wait a minute. But you're willing this guy, gal, who was, You know, did whatever in college. Yeah. Frat, whatever, sorority, whatever, or me, just a general derelict.

Ryan Maruyama [00:12:19]:

Like, Yeah. You should

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:21]:

their life.

Ryan Maruyama [00:12:21]:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You know, do you want me to operate on you? I was probably more immature at 22 Than I was at 18.

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:31]:

Probably less mature after you went through college. Yeah. I would because I would argue college definitely infantilizes a lot of people, I would say. That's no one's gonna like that, but that's that's what I think.

Ryan Maruyama [00:12:39]:

So that is the argument that I hear all the time when I talk to people about it. But when I talk to physicians about it, A lot of physicians are just like, yeah, you know, that's a good idea. The reason why I think this should happen as well is that There's a massive, massive problem with health care and health care providers, and it is gonna happen in Our generation, you and me, and everybody listening to this probably because most people that listen to this are still of working age. The doctors And the nurses and all of the health care providers, they are coming out of school with 250, $300 worth of debt, and It is getting less and less attractive to become a health care provider.

Hannah Maruyama [00:13:26]:

Yeah. People don't realize that because they always say, you know, oh, well, you should definitely Get a college degree if you wanna be a doctor or a lawyer. And they always say that, like, they assume that all doctors and all lawyers are high earning. Right? They are higher earning than bachelor's degree holders because they hold graduate degrees. That's the reason. But that doesn't mean that they're able to easily pay off their loans. Some of them are 56 years old, still paying off loans. That's not a good position for people who are practicing medicine to be in.

Hannah Maruyama [00:13:58]:

They are extremely highly leveraged to their license too. That's another thing that's just just ethically speaking. You have people that are much more concerned with the amount of money they should make because they have to be because they have to get that monkey off of their back. They have to pay off that debt, and it makes them less able to objectively practice medicine.

Ryan Maruyama [00:14:18]:

It's an incentive thing because they are riddled in debt. Now they start have to start thinking about making more money. And does making more money Come at the cost of positive health outcomes.

Hannah Maruyama [00:14:33]:

Yes. I think.

Ryan Maruyama [00:14:34]:

That's the question that I always ask myself, and I tend to think That the answer is yes as well. And you know this. We we've literally had this conversation pretty much for almost a decade now. I think it's a major problem that these Doctors and these nurses are coming out of school with 100 of 1,000 of dollars worth of debt, and they're They're like, I gotta go make a lot of money.

Hannah Maruyama [00:14:55]:

And they do. And you can't really fault them for that because that is true. They've done this. They've gone into this profession, and they do have this large debt burden that they have to service. And so they have to service it with the available tools that they have. And the available tools they have is their labor and their practices. And you can see too it's interesting. I just saw this girl who's in med school breaking this down, but she was talking about the way that doctors get paid.

Hannah Maruyama [00:15:19]:

And she was breaking down the fact that once they switch to billing by procedure instead of by length of stay in hospital or time spent, The doctor started making more money, but also we now have more interventions than we used to, which is probably not the best thing for patient care in general because it means that you do things that you don't need to do because you and policy encourages you to do that because you need to make money. Right?

Ryan Maruyama [00:15:46]:

Yeah. And we've talked about this before. And literally, literally, just yesterday, we were talking about this. You are starting to see these independent doctors Start doing not quite concierge medicine, but cash practices that do, Gym model, basically. Yeah. It's basically a model that you pay a monthly fee, and then you have access To this person, you know, 247 or whatever. And then you go and you see this general practitioner for whatever it is That they can do. Right? General stitching, like small stitches Cavies.

Hannah Maruyama [00:16:24]:

X rays. Yeah. Blood tests.

Ryan Maruyama [00:16:26]:

You're sick. Yeah. Antibiotics, those types of things. Those people are incentivized completely different than the doctors that are in the insurance system. Completely different because Those doctors that are doing the gym style model

Hannah Maruyama [00:16:42]:

They want to leave you alone.

Ryan Maruyama [00:16:43]:

They they want you to be as healthy as Possible. So they

Hannah Maruyama [00:16:46]:

can leave you alone.

Ryan Maruyama [00:16:47]:

So that you leave them alone.

Hannah Maruyama [00:16:49]:

Yeah. That too.

Ryan Maruyama [00:16:50]:

You leave them alone. Don't call me. Just just just pay your $80, $100 a month. Yeah. And then don't ever call me. Yeah. And so I'm gonna tell you to

Hannah Maruyama [00:17:00]:

Take vitamins, exercise, eat well.

Ryan Maruyama [00:17:02]:

Exactly. Lose weight. Yes. Exactly. I'm gonna tell you to do all of those things, whereas the other doctors are incentivized to see you. They want to see you. That I mean, it's literally just the incentive. If they don't see you, they don't get paid.

Ryan Maruyama [00:17:16]:

The more interventions that they do, the more money they make. And so I don't know what the answer is. I'm just some idiot with a mic, but these are the problems, and doctors are are definitely having that. And so, yeah, I don't think that you need to go to college to be a doctor. Right? I mean, especially, that's something that we can stop right now, like, literally tomorrow. Just just drop Just drop the college degree requirement. Boom. Done.

Ryan Maruyama [00:17:42]:

Problem solved. Moving on though, talking about license to practice. One of the things that a lot of people get wrong is airline pilots or pilots in general. Right. And so You do not need a college degree to be a pilot.

Hannah Maruyama [00:18:01]:

Everybody listen up. There is not a single US airline That legally requires a college degree to be a commercial pilot in this country. That is how it is. If I see 1 more comment that says, well, except for you can't because legally no. You are wrong. Delta was the last airline to roll back bachelor's degree requirement. It was January of 2022. Go Google it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:18:25]:

Go Google it. Do not comment that on this video. Do not do it. Do not do it. I cannot I'm sorry. I've probably seen that comment, like, 300 times in the past week. It's crazy.

Ryan Maruyama [00:18:35]:

Yeah. So that's a good example of things that you have to do your research for, And you have to understand a little bit more, and it takes a little bit more digging. And so this route is definitely Much more research involved, and you have to be involved in it because you have to know whether or not a degree is actually legally required. A lot of people with airline pilots, what they're gonna say is that, like, well, the airlines really prefer that you have a degree. That's what they're gonna say. That's the argument.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:06]:

Yeah. Maybe that's true.

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:07]:

Maybe that's true. Maybe that is true.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:08]:

What they're you don't know what they're hiring for.

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:10]:

Exactly. The fact of the matter is is right now, As we speak in 2023, there's a shortage of airline pilots.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:17]:

Right. Pretty sure they'll take whoever they can get.

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:19]:

They need the person with The right licensure and the right amount of hours, and that's what they need. And then they need to put you in a seat so you can fly planes. Like They don't need you to take sociology 207.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:34]:

You know what's so crazy is well, a couple people in the comments actually of well, when I was talking about pilot requirement, I got the comment, well, if they get a bachelor's degree, they don't have to fly as in many hours, and I'd rather have a pilot with a bachelor's degree. I just went, why? Why would you prefer somebody objectively? Why would you prefer a human being who sat in a college class and learn about how much they should appreciate Jackson Pollock because it's not degree specific. It's not like if they have an aviation degree. I can see an argument for that. Right? I could See an argument for a very specific type of degree that shaves hours off of your license requirement. But why would you want somebody who sat in a 4 year college And, wow, that's so great. Let's learn about Kate Choppin and lovely short stories. Why would you want that person to fly a plane more than you would Want somebody who has more flight hours.

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:26]:

I, personally, I want somebody who's been flying a plane longer more. That's what I want. I do not want somebody who shaved off some of their flight requirement hours because they were sitting in a college classroom. That is useless

Ryan Maruyama [00:20:41]:

to me. People say the same argument for all of the other degree require jobs, You know, such as lawyer, but in some state 4 states, you don't need a college degree, but let's just say in 46 of them, you do. So it's, like, let's just call it degree mostly jobs. So lawyers, doctors, they're like, well, I want my doctor to have a college degree. So you're just gonna say that your doctor, your surgeon who's gonna do brain surgery on you is not gonna have a college degree. Good luck. He was like, I don't care. I want them to have done brain surgery, a lot of brain surgery.

Ryan Maruyama [00:21:18]:

That's what I care about. I don't care if you went to Stanford. I don't care if you went to university if nobody gives a You know what I mean? Like, I don't care. My divorce lawyer, my litigation lawyer, my personal Injury lawyer, I don't care you where you went to school either. What I wanna know is how many cases just like this have you won? How much do you normally win if it's personal injury? Like, how much do you normally win? Perfect. Oh, a lot? All the time? Great. You're hired.

Hannah Maruyama [00:21:46]:

Right.

Ryan Maruyama [00:21:46]:

I don't care where you went to school.

Hannah Maruyama [00:21:48]:

I don't care if you did go to school. I don't give a crap. If you've been 14 years old and you read the bar and you started suing people and winning, That's the one. Kimmy the kid lawyer that's been doing this for 10 years longer than a college graduate. Anyway, not the point. So moving on to point number 2, that was our longest rabbit trail yet. We did real good. The 2nd conversation you need to have with your child is have you tried it? Whatever it is.

Hannah Maruyama [00:22:15]:

This, especially, if your child wants to be a nurse, A social worker or a teacher or you know what? I'll lump psychologists into this too. Anything to do with psychiatry, psychology, whatever. I'm gonna lump this into. If your child wants to go into one of these pink collar jobs, that's what they're called, you make sure that you have put your child in that environment especially before they ever buy a degree in it because the rate of attrition on these specific careers, the rate of unhappiness, the rate of people leaving them is unbelievable, and you it is fine if people wanna continue to do these jobs. 1st, they need to know what those jobs entail, what that work environment entails. What working inside that system realistically looks like because I do not care that we need these professions. I do not care. I realize that that is gonna dramatically impact the future.

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:07]:

Like, I realize there's gonna be a point in the future where someone that we care about or one of us is sick and there's not enough nurses. We'll deal with that then. I do not care enough about that to tell people to sacrifice their future because we need these jobs. Do not send your kids into this meat grinder if they don't understand what it's actually gonna entail to work in that environment. To do that day in and day out, That's not a good reason. They need to really understand what that's gonna look like before they buy a degree and go into that industry. If people did that, the people that go into it really wanna be in it. They wanna be in it more than they care about other things.

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:45]:

Those are the ones you want. Everybody else, stay away from it. Stay away from it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:23:50]:

Hey there. I hope that you're loving today's conversation. At Degree Free, we wanna help as many people as we can thrive and succeed without needing a college degree. Having these guests on that share their experiences So that you can learn from their stories and their mistakes is one of the ways that we do that. Genuinely, I'm just grateful that these guests take the time to come on and share their wisdom. And if you're getting value out of this conversation or you've listened to 2, 3, or 4 plus episodes, I have one quick Please take a moment right now to review this podcast on whatever platform you're tuning in on. With your review, you're not just supporting us, but you're amplifying buying the voices of every guest we bring on and, ultimately, helping more people thrive degree free. Thank you for doing that right now And for being such an important part of degree free.

Ryan Maruyama [00:24:39]:

Yeah. Definitely. A good example of this is, once again, doctors and nurses, and There are a lot of people that think they wanna be a doctor. They wanna be a nurse, and some people are, like, they even know their specialty that they wanna do. Right? They they even know, like, This is the type of medicine that I wanna practice and be like, I wanna be an ER doctor. And it's like, I wanna be an ER nurse, and this is like, okay. Do you have you ever been in an ER?

Hannah Maruyama [00:25:05]:

Yeah. Never been to the hospital ever in their lives.

Ryan Maruyama [00:25:07]:

Have you have you ever been in an ER? Have you ever seen The people that go in and out of an ER, do you understand, like, the type of work and the hours and the work conditions that you're gonna have to deal with? I mean, both the nurses and the doctors I mean, ERs, they're all in the 1st floor. Why? Because it have to be easy access. We gotta be able to get the gurneys in. And so because they're all in the 1st floor, and, normally, they're trying to maximize space, so there's no windows. Right? There's no windows. They're all in the 1st floor. Or even if they did have windows, there's no view. They're under fluorescent lights all day.

Ryan Maruyama [00:25:43]:

The shifts are long. The work is, I mean, dynamic, so that's good. Right. For most people that are looking for that type of work, it it is very dynamic for an ER doctor, ER nurse. If you work at, like, a trauma center or something like that, you know, you could be dealing with a Trauma case over here, a different type of trauma case over here, and then, you know, like, a druggie over here and and some sort of cardiac arrest Something over here or whatever. And so that part is good, but also not so good as well. And then so exactly to that point of, like, trauma, You work at a burn center, etcetera, etcetera. You're gonna see gnarly things.

Ryan Maruyama [00:26:23]:

And so have you ever seen a gnarly thing? Like.

Hannah Maruyama [00:26:26]:

For you've never seen you've never seen anything like that before.

Ryan Maruyama [00:26:29]:

You know what's so interesting is I went to Jamaica recently, and I was talking to a few physicians there, Shins there, couple of doctors, and I am about the least medical person ever.

Hannah Maruyama [00:26:42]:

Not that's not

Ryan Maruyama [00:26:43]:

completely true. Ever. And I was talking to them, and one of them was an OBGYN, And the other one was an ENT, and I was talking to them. What's so interesting is on all of their or whatever, they had never seen somebody die.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:02]:

What?

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:02]:

Yeah. This isn't really relative to the story. It just boggled my mind of, like, You never pound a chest in your life? And I mean, like, on any of your rotations as a doctor, like, in the ER room or anything? And like, both of them are like, no, never.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:14]:

The ENT doesn't surprise me as much because if they got through residency without seeing it, they wouldn't.

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:19]:

Yeah. Right. Right.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:20]:

Exactly. OB does surprise me because there's a really high maternal death rate in the

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:24]:

Like, nice to see people die all the time, like, all the time.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:28]:

That is wild. That is crazy.

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:29]:

Yeah. It was pretty crazy.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:31]:

Well, there's another friend that's ortho. Has he seen anybody?

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:34]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:34]:

He's in residence. He has.

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:35]:

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Which is interesting. Those conversations don't come up is what I'm saying.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:39]:

Yeah. Sure.

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:40]:

Use them with Dobre?

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:41]:

It's not like you sit down in the bar, have a beer. Hey. When was the last time you saw somebody die?

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:46]:

So, anyway, that is really important is Working in those conditions, and there's very many different ways that you could do that. You can volunteer if whatever it is that they want to do accepts volunteers. They can do whatever the job is, but a little bit lower than that. You know what I mean? So, like, for a doctor, for a nurse, You can become an EMT. There are a lot of programs all around the nation that do it in a few weeks. I told my story about how I did it in 6 weeks. Right. There are a lot of programs like that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:28:18]:

I mean, it costs a few $1,000. Go get your EMT. You can go get a job pretty much anywhere because EMTs, it's pretty crap job. And there are a lot of places that are hiring as long as you're willing to run a rig. You know what I mean? And so go see what that's like And then, okay, I like this. This is cool. Then you go to college and then, you know, go be a doctor or nurse or whatever it is after that. College will always be there to take your money.

Hannah Maruyama [00:28:48]:

Always. And we say that all the time, but it always bears repeating. The one thing before we move off of this topic that I wanna say is when I talk about this and I talk about the reality of these jobs, and this is the paint color jobs, but also health care jobs. Other jobs that, like I said, just have a high rate of people leaving them and high rate of dissatisfaction with the industry as people say, Stop saying this. You're gonna scare kids away from it, and we need these people. If they get scared away from a profession by someone describing partially what that profession is going to be like. They should not be in that profession. I feel really confident saying that.

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:26]:

If the description itself alarms them so much that it scares them away from that job, they should not have it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:32]:

Totally. This reminds me of coach prime, Deion Sanders. He is University of Colorado. I don't know. Yeah. I don't really watch college football anymore. And so I don't know how they're I don't think they're doing very well, but he got hired on as a Colorado's head football coach This year, and there was a video or an interview. It's like a 60 minute interview or something like that with them.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:58]:

And it showed him Having a team meeting in the summer when he got hired with the team and basically saying, like, I got hired to Win. And we are gonna have winners on this team. I'm summing this up. The coaches here, They were not winners. And because they were not winners, they probably recruited a bunch of losers. And so the losing coaches are out. The winning coaches are in and because they probably Recruited a bunch of losers. We're probably gonna get rid of a bunch of you guys and 50% or something like that quit.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:40]:

And they went into the transfer system, and they went to a different school.

Hannah Maruyama [00:30:44]:

Well, those were the losers, like, quote unquote.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:47]:

That's exactly right. And He was asked about that on the 60 minute interview. He's just like, so why are we so hard on them? He's just like, look. I just said words. And he's like, if those words are gonna make you quit, he's like, I don't want you on my team.

Hannah Maruyama [00:31:02]:

Yeah. That's it. The logic checks out.

Ryan Maruyama [00:31:04]:

No. He's like, I don't want you on my team. If those things if just words and as you're saying, is it just the description of the job and Trying to show as much realities of the job and of the life outcome prior, if that's gonna scare you away, You probably shouldn't be in that role.

Hannah Maruyama [00:31:21]:

And you definitely shouldn't buy a college degree in it to figure it out. Definitely 100000%. The last 2 things about this, This is also true of animal work or science where I'm gonna put science work in quotations. The reason is because a lot of people will say, oh, you know, my kid's gonna be a scientist, blah blah blah blah. What they don't realize is a lot of these science positions, especially anything to do with marine biology or animal biology, anything like that, a lot of those jobs pay really low. I'm just gonna say that out loud. So when I talk to people about this and I say, why don't you just have your kid go work in one of those industries? Like, go work at a fish farm because you're gonna get A very similar experience, and the pay is gonna be a couple $1,000 different. And people will just lose their minds over it, but that's one of those things.

Hannah Maruyama [00:32:03]:

Like, Have your kid test. Just go have them work somewhere near that environment or something similar to that, and then see if they actually like the work enough to go pay and be in debt to go do the work and get a few $1,000 raise because that's about not gonna be the difference. And so our third point this is the 3rd conversation you need to have with your child before they spend 5 and a half years and $100,000 on college, and that is if this child spends this time and money. So you talking to your child. If you spend this time and money and you get this type of work. Does it make sense with your other goals in life? Is it going to help you or hurt you with other goals like family, like freedom, like job flexibility as far as scheduling goes, pets that you wanna have, places that you wanna live, Things that you wanna do in life like travel or get really good at a hobby or anything. Any project that you wanna build. Like, if you wanna build a business and you You go into debt to get this degree and you spend all this time.

Hannah Maruyama [00:32:59]:

Is it going to hinder you from doing something else that's actually your life goal? Because if your goal is to get the work, That's fine. Right? If your goal is to say, I am a this. Cool. Great. Awesome. But if your goal is something else and you Think that becoming a this is what's going to help you get the goal. You need to do the math on whether or not it's gonna help you get there or pull you further away from that thing.

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:23]:

So let me break this down or try to understand what it is that you're saying. And so What you're saying is basically they need to prioritize their goals.

Hannah Maruyama [00:33:31]:

Yes.

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:32]:

And so you need to decide what is the most important thing in your life.

Hannah Maruyama [00:33:37]:

Not Certainly the most important thing, but decide if there's something more important than becoming whatever the job is. So a good example since we're talking about doctors would be, like, if your goal is to have a large family, then maybe being a doctor isn't the best way to do that. If your goal is to make a lot of money and that's the more your goal because you wanna travel a world, Then again, being a doctor is not the best, most effective way to do that. It's difficult for doctors to have large families because Oftentimes, doctors, specifically female doctors, really struggle with fertility, and that's because they spend so much time in school and their sleep schedules are disrupted. This is a well documented, but it's difficult for them to have their own biological children. The reason is because they are going to sacrifice so much of their childbearing years to going to school and high stress work where they're sleep deprived. And because of that, by the time they get out of school and they're actually able to because they're out of residency and They're now financially stable enough to actually start having children. It's difficult for them to do so.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:35]:

So if your goal in life as a woman is to have a large biological family, Then being a physician is probably not the best way to go about doing that. That is actually going to hurt you if your goal is to have a large biological family. So you have to decide if which one of those 2 things is priority.

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:51]:

Yeah. So you are mainly speaking to women here. You're not speaking to men.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:54]:

If a guy thinks So that, oh, hey. You know, I wanna make a lot of money, so I'm gonna be a lawyer. Okay. Maybe you should do that, but maybe you should just go into sales. Right? Like, if the goal is to make money and not to become I wanna have that JD after my name, maybe you should just look at sales roles.

Ryan Maruyama [00:35:10]:

I'm not talking about money. You said something about family, and I'm trying to correct the record. I'm trying to make sure that I understand what you're saying. And so No.

Hannah Maruyama [00:35:17]:

You're saying whatever the goal is.

Ryan Maruyama [00:35:18]:

Like But I'm talking about family. You brought it up. I'm talking about family. And so you're talking to men or you're talking to women? Because it sounds like you're talking to women because men, Biologically can have kids at any time.

Hannah Maruyama [00:35:30]:

No. I understand that, but I'm more talking about the situation that you'd want to have a family into. The other thing about doctors, male doctors, It's time consuming. Right? They're not gonna have a great schedule. So, again, if their goal is to have a large biological family and spend time with them, then, yeah, being a doctor is probably not like the ideal route if that goal is higher than being a doctor. If your goal is to have an MD after your name, That's fine. There's no right or wrong goal. It's just if this goal is higher than this goal, you need to optimize for whichever goal is the highest.

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:00]:

And you can't mistake a career being the goal if it's not actually the goal.

Ryan Maruyama [00:36:06]:

Yeah. This is interesting. And I wanted to push back a little bit just because I know that we're gonna get a lot of pushback. Yeah. I

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:11]:

know that's not gonna be popular.

Ryan Maruyama [00:36:13]:

And so I just wanted to clarify what it is that you're saying. But Largely, maybe not everything you said, but largely, I agree with you, especially with the women Aspect of it. Right? I mean, they are going to be in school and residency for the majority of it. And when I say of it, I mean, of childbearing years. And so the biological clock is ticking. And so, you know, that's just facts. What I find interesting and to add a little bit more about the whole doctor thing, and this is a little bit of a tangent, but what I find a little bit interesting about Physicians and doctors is how prevalent it is for doctors to marry other doctors. And it makes sense why do they do it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:37:04]:

Well, they marry each other, I think largely because they understand what it takes and the sacrifices that had to and they Have to be made in order to have that career and to do that job. And so physicians We'll understand when other physicians are like, no. I gotta study. Right? Or I got I have this test, or I have this or that or this in the morning, and that's why I can't do it. I don't have any free time because I'm always at work as I'm always doing something. Okay. It's very easy for another doctor to understand that. But if you're not a physician and you don't understand it, like, oh, man.

Ryan Maruyama [00:37:46]:

That sucks. Like, Why don't you just call in sick, or why don't you do this? And you don't have to explain that to another physician. But what I find crazy about that what I find interesting About the whole thing is that, yes, about the family portion of it. Because if you marry another doctor, typically, You know, let's just say the male is 28, 30, and they're they're in residency. His wife is probably 26 By, you know, standard. This is just

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:15]:

Yeah. Reasonable assumption.

Ryan Maruyama [00:38:16]:

Yeah. This is just stats, you know, usually about 2 years younger. And she is also going through residency and everything like that. You're not gonna wanna have kids While you're in residency.

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:29]:

Most of them don't.

Ryan Maruyama [00:38:29]:

You're not gonna wanna have kids while you're in med school because then your whole life gets put on hold. You know what I mean? And so Because they intermarry, them having kids gets pushed back even more. Right? Whereas if a male Physician got together with a non physician partner and wanted to have biological children. It would be easier.

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:51]:

Only because the window, It doesn't have to line up as evenly, basically. That's the main reason.

Ryan Maruyama [00:38:56]:

Right. Exactly.

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:57]:

Yeah. You bring up something interesting too. It so Doctors marry doctors, and teachers marry teachers, and lawyers marry lawyers. But for whatever reason, nurses do not marry nurses. I don't know why. I've I've always thought that that was kind of interesting. I wonder if it's because maybe there's not as many the ratio of male nurses is not that But this is just, male female marriages. And I say that because it was a I gotta find the chart, but there was a chart.

Hannah Maruyama [00:39:20]:

And I think it was a It was census data, and somebody had put it into a chart where you could visually see which careers tend to marry each other. And it was just wildly interesting. I should find it, and we should do a breakdown of it because it was it was kinda cool.

Ryan Maruyama [00:39:33]:

Yeah. I'm just wondering if it's just a volume matching problem.

Hannah Maruyama [00:39:36]:

That's kinda what I was thinking. I was, like, not as many male nurses maybe, but then That doesn't really account for the teachers though, because 77% of US teachers are women. So how are they all married to male? That's, like, statistically doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Ryan Maruyama [00:39:48]:

Yeah. You know what? I'm not sure. Once you

Hannah Maruyama [00:39:50]:

check married teachers. So just married teachers. Like, just teachers who are married are married to other teachers.

Ryan Maruyama [00:39:55]:

Yeah. You know what? Now that you say, I have no idea. What should I do with a microphone?

Hannah Maruyama [00:39:59]:

We should do an entire episode about that because it's it's pretty interesting. But that is those are my 3 conversations that you need to have with your kid, And I think that's all we got for today.

Ryan Maruyama [00:40:08]:

Yeah. And that is pretty much the episode, I think. I think we had a couple things left That we wanted to talk about, but maybe for another episode or for another day. Yeah. I really liked this episode. I know that it's Probably doesn't sound normal, and we sound a little bit different. I think we sound a little bit different too because we're in a different environment.

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:31]:

Yeah. Might be a little echoey.

Ryan Maruyama [00:40:33]:

I don't mean actually the sound. I started talking about the audio, but what I mean is, like, our demeanor and the things that we talked about. I felt like today and let us know in the YouTube comments. I felt like today, we kinda went off topic a lot. But

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:48]:

Did you like it, though?

Ryan Maruyama [00:40:49]:

Yeah. Ask I say ask yourself. Alright. We gotta stop.

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:56]:

Have our table. Everything's on

Ryan Maruyama [00:40:57]:

I I don't have a table.

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:59]:

Everything's on a kilter.

Ryan Maruyama [00:41:00]:

Yeah. Exactly. And so but yeah. I am asking you watching this. Did you like this?

Hannah Maruyama [00:41:07]:

Yeah. Love it or hate it?

Ryan Maruyama [00:41:07]:

Yeah. Let me know. I know that we went on a little bit of a tangent, but I do think that those are the 3 conversations or the 3 things to talk about with your kid. Before we go, can you do a quick wrap up of the 3 points, and then let's get out of here?

Hannah Maruyama [00:41:20]:

Yes. Conversation number 1, look up if it's legally required to buy a degree for the job that they want. License to practice as Ryan said. Number 2, have you tried it? Has your kid shadowed or volunteered in that work environment before they're buying a Green it. And then the third thing is if you spend this time and money, is it going to help you get closer to your primary goals, or is it just something that's a different goal entirely, and it's not as high priority.

Ryan Maruyama [00:41:44]:

That's the episode. Until next week, guys.

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